user1634 (Stranger)
07-12-00 03:00
No 27698
      Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

All this talk of insects, but what about plants instead!?  If we can make rice that produces vitamin A, why not make a sassafras tree that produces MDMA!  I'll eat bark over aphid shit any day!

No seriously, they made rice that converts a carotene to vitamin A by inserting DNA for the correct enzymes into rice seeds.  Why not let genetically modify the sassafras tree to convert safrole to mdma?
(I suggest using rice instead of the sassafras tree, but I don't know that rice has a safrole-like precursor)
I'm not saying this is easy, or even possible.  But worth a novel thought or two....
---
The opinions of of user1634 are not necessarily those of his editors, keyboard, mouse or monitor.


 
 
 
 
    Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
07-12-00 13:10
No 27889
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Rabbit liver already has a transaminase enzyme that will aminate allylbenzenes in the 2-position. This will produce MDA.

Then you just use a SAMe and a methylation enzyme... This is not that far-fetched, it will be in use in a decade or two.

http://rhodium.lycaeum.org
 
 
 
 
    godshrink
(Hive Bee)
07-12-00 16:18
No 27937
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

good thinking. Reason i brought up insects is simple. Number of species outnumbers everything else!
In fact, the number of beetle species alone outnumbers everything else. So its a vast area of possible new chemicals. Second reason is that they are small, and often easy to manipulate...meaning that they might well serve the clandestine chemists of the future. Genetic engineering is likelier to serve big industry
And indeed, perhaps the sassafras tree can be changed...but would it be easy to hide them in your yard?
I thought it would be easier (though still somewhat far-fetched and futuristic) to raise the bug that eats the sassy root that changes it to what we like. I see now that mentioning consuming insect waste product is a bit touchy for the average hivester. I like Mr. Smith's direction alot on this, but i still wonder if govt. controls will be easier when it comes down to genetic engineering. As some famous entymologist once said
"God has an inordinate fondness for beetles" There is so much to learn.
by the way, user 1634, I'm sure that you have already eaten aphid shit and found it to be quite delicious and nutritious, whereas you would find sassy rootbark to be indigestible and toxic. All of us have been eating insects all along. We just haven't noticed. Though truly, i wasn't thinking about consuming them directly. I was assuming some extraction and refinement. Even a pill at the end if you like. Definitely no eyeballs.
 
 
 
 
    Unobtainium
(Moderator)
07-12-00 16:33
No 27940
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

On a thread about ephedra extraction a while back, worlock went off on a tangent and said he found a mold on the plant that appeared to be meth. He wasn't sure if it was naturally occurring or if the ephedra was contaminated in his lab. But if a plant naturally contains ephedrine, it's not too much of a stretch to believe that it could also be naturally reduced in or on the same plant.

 
 
 
 
    godshrink
(Hive Bee)
07-12-00 17:07
No 27949
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Consider the ergot fungus on rye! Its not so much that the initial plant has to have goodies we want.
People don't use rye for precursors. (oops. Unless Rye whiskey counts) Life forms in general are processing plants, turning compounds into other compounds thru little chem labs inside them. We know virtually nothing about this. But from what is slowly coming out, it won't be long. Think Different(ly)?
btw, Rhodium...Ethics wize, do we want to toss some catepillars into a blender, or do we want to disect rabbits to get high?
 
 
 
 
    godshrink
(Hive Bee)
07-12-00 22:58
No 28038
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

hopefully, this is the last i have to say on the subject, and i will be relieved.
I was kinda hoping for a resident entymologist to exist in the hive, that could be introduced to the genetic engineers. Me thinks we all benefit by hybridizations of science.
Many of the drugs we want are toxic alkaloids produced by plants to protect themselves from insects.
The plant is trying to make itself inedible with the foxy compounds like morphine and ephidrine, and saffrrole and whatever yo like. THC. Well, over time, there's always some bugs that develop a strategy for dealing with these nasty alkaloids like cocaine, and figure out how to eat that plant anyway. These are the bugs i would study if i wasn't employed full time as a janitor at walmart. Study the ones that have managed to live off plants that have high concentrations of interesting alkaloids.
Bugs that can handle Jimson Weed, for instance, or poppies, or pot, or ma huang, or co-ca,
or morning glories, or ayhuasca, or peyote, etc., good starting place.These bugs are side-stepping the toxins and eliminating them some how, or they are reducing them with their digestive acid/base
manipulatons. Lotta bugs got toxic arms. Weapons. Strong acids, pheremones, esters, hell...they got bio-luminesence.
Here's a kicker: Some insects are drug addicts! Certain species of ants seek out and allow a certain beetle into the ant colony. The beeetle eats ant larvae! Why do the ants put up with it? Because ants lick a certain drug from glands on the beetle. The ants can survive without the drug. But they like it enough to offer up some babies for it. This ain't bull. The world is strange.

My crazy hunch is that bug drugs exist. I even suspect that the long sought after and debated SOMA
is a hybrid phenomenae. Some bug used to work some plant in those days, and it would cause that plant to exude a counter chemical, or perhaps some puss from the affection.  Gross?

I wonder. Maybe there's a type of Bee that licks the anus of aphids that are parasiticly sucking the juice out of ma huang plants. Maybe that bee returns at the end of its busy day and up-chucks its effort onto the ever -growing, collective crystal of pure meth.
Are you speed freaks gonna tell me you wouldn't do this meth because filthy insects had done the slave labor for you?         Really.

 
 
 
 
    user1634
(Stranger)
07-13-00 00:43
No 28071
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Rhodium:
>Rabbit liver already has a transaminase enzyme that will aminate
>allylbenzenes in the 2-position.This will produce MDA.
Can you tell me where you read this so I can go edumacate myself?
Inject this transamines into a sassy tree, and you could extract MDA (if possible) instead of safrole.
(also assuming sassy tree has this allylbenzene you mentioned)

>Then you just use a SAMe and a methylation enzyme...
SAMe  = s-adenosylmethionine?  How does this fit in the picture?

Godshrink:
Yes, genetically engineered sassy bark would not be on my menu!    As for "Would you be able to hide it in the back yard?"  No.  But why not hide it out in the open.  Why not plant it at the nearest state/national park? 

I can see it now... a new category on jeopardy tomorrow.
I'll take aphid-anus licking collective bee vommit for 1000$.
---
The opinions of of user1634 are not necessarily those of his editors, keyboard, mouse or monitor.


 
 
 
 
    zephler
(Hive Bee)
07-13-00 01:05
No 28078
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Well they are good thoughts for legal applications, but do you really think any institution that has multi-million dollar resources will genetically engineer bugs or plants to produce illegal drugs, I mean really man....

 
 
 
 
    godshrink
(Hive Bee)
07-13-00 05:19
No 28158
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

no, i don't...but i suspect that human beings will continue to explore their world, and passing on information.
How else did our primitive ancestors discover so many of the compounds we have come to know and love? I'm suggesting that that search ain't over yet. And it needn't be a total crap shoot, either. To some extent, we know what to look for.

 
 
 
 
    Mr_Smith
(Hive Bee)
07-13-00 11:17
No 28261
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

In one of Shulgin's early papers, he reports that compounds like MDA and TMA accumulate in rat livers after the rats are given alkylbenzines.

Millions of dollars are not really required to carry out this kind of biological research, only space, sterile technique, and careful observation.  For example, one can envision a rather simple experiment where everyday yeast is cultured in 100 or more little vessels on a medium containing a very dilute solution of sassafras root bark extract.  The saffrole, in addition to being toxic to the yeast, is also conveniently mutinagenic. Over a period of time, the concentration fo extract in the yeast cultures would be increased, to the point where 99% of the cultures die.  The surviving culture(s) are likely to consist of yeasts descended from one that could survive the higher concentration of safrole, quite probably because the yeast has enzymes capable of rendering the compound less toxic, by amination perhaps. After a hundred or so new cultures are established, using the surviving strain of yeast, the process can be repeated, until the yeast is resistant enough to survive in a safrole emulsion or something of that nature. Required would be a sensitive test for the presence of MDA, MDMA or whatnot in the culture media, to ensure that the hardy yeast was, in fact aminating the safrole, and not otherwise degrading it.

 
 
 
 
    godshrink
(Hive Bee)
07-13-00 14:54
No 28321
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Mr Smith, you the man! I'm more fumbling in the dark. However, still suspect that the desired chemicals already exist without the manipulations; without the high science...but it would take some pretty high science to find them...and afterword, could be obtained by plain weirdos. Its a little hard for me to belive that engineers with the abilities you describe would be involved in such clandestine activities. But i hope so.

 
 
 
 
    Shambhala
(Stranger)
07-13-00 17:41
No 28358
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Some where around the old board(or here) there is a thread about a Safrole tree.  Or mabey that was a dream a just had?  HTML/ xxxxxx.html? Anyone?

 
 
 
 
    Lem
(Stranger)
07-14-00 00:30
No 28472
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

perhaps someone could engineer some kind of transamine containing sassafras blight! ;-)

Only fools rush in where hard-headed psychonauts fear to tread.
 
 
 
 
    MrGreen
(Stranger)
07-16-00 04:20
No 29193
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Mr_Smith
Just one word... yeehaw.  Cool idea.
How 'bout this for a modification to your experiment.  Rather than testing the surviving yeast for transaminase activity, why not just stick the transamine enzyme in the yeast to begin with?  Don't they inject yeast with dna all the time in biotech companies? 
(this way you don't have to figure out which yeasts/yeasti/yeasteses are just immune to safrole somehow)
Can you buy transamine enzyme from chem suppliers?  (i know i know, look it up myself.)

 
 
 
 
    StuckMojo
(Stranger)
07-16-00 09:03
No 29273
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

What a bad ass idea!!!!.....I cant wait till i start getting a strain of tomato that produces THC.  I guess i will just have to replace half of the C02 that the plant is breathing off of with pot smoke and watch the puppy suck it up.  Or i guess that would just make a cannibis dependant sub-species....*sigh*    Anyway to cross breed other plants with cannibis or psilocybin??  I would just love some nice pychoactive sun-flower seeds....the posibilities are endless!!!

 
 
 
 
    godshrink
(Hive Bee)
07-16-00 15:09
No 29310
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Funny how a thread trying to be about trees has come around to yeasts. Its a good sign, to  me.Large think goes small. I just hope fungi doesn't get slighted in the rush. Seriously, ya'll on to something.
Go, cats, go!

 
 
 
 
    MrGreen
(Stranger)
07-17-00 17:43
No 29673
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Well, after surfing the web for a good long while, I've found a ton of info on dopamine biosynthesis.
Check the big pic' out at http://stevens.scripps.edu/hydroxylase.html
If rice/tomatoes/sassy trees/yeast contained some of these enzymes, plus something to add a CH3 group etc, you have a biosynthesis.

Am I talking to myself out here?  Are there any bees with more biology than I that could fill in my gaps in my know-how?


 
 
 
 
    godshrink
(Hive Bee)
07-17-00 21:00
No 29736
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Mr. Green! Good site. May you bio-synthesize with many, or at least engage dialog. Haven't been here long (too long)  not many biologists at a chem site. Mr Smith knows things? Synthesizing understanding from many fields of study would bee hot. Chemist, brain guys, cellular physiologists, botanists and ethno-botan






ists-pharmacologists. Maybe throw in a few shamans...stir that soup, and we'd get a buzz. Good luck

 
 
 
 
    john_galt
(Stranger)
07-17-00 21:52
No 29751
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

You buzzed:
____________________________________________________________
Rabbit liver already has a transaminase enzyme that will aminate allylbenzenes in the 2-position. This will produce MDA.
____________________________________________________________
Why are we not making MDA in this way? I am sure you can buy the enzyme from a biochem supplier. It is expensive, I'm sure, but enzymes are extremely efficient little bees, and can make many times their weight in honey.
Better idea. My roomy (from Germany) is a biochem dude, works in a genetics lab.
Step 1.
get some undifferentiated sassafras tree cells and grow in a culture.
Step 2.
Order the gene for the enzyme from a biochem company. Yes, you can do this.
Step 3. This one is hard, you have to get the DNA for the enzyme into the nucleus of the cell. Pay a biochem company to do it for you.
Step 4.
Using your designer sassy cell, and the correct hormones (Carolina Biological, anyone :)) grow that cell into a seedling in an agar growth medium(aerated at formation), transfer to a more common medium, and propagate(seeds are best bet, as cuttings from sassy don't root very well). Now, spread your seeds far and wide. And I do mean far and wide. Plant morphology should not change very well, and after beeing in the ecosystem for a few decades, it will be impossible to eradicate this botanical bee from the face of the earth :)

All in great fun :)
"I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will not live for the sake of any other man, nor ask any other man to live for mine"
-John Galt

 
 
 
 
    john_galt
(Stranger)
07-17-00 22:06
No 29755
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

You buzzed:
Anyway to cross breed other plants with cannibis or psilocybin??
Plants have successfully been combined, like the potato and tomato, and the science is actually quite sophisticated, to the point of emphasizing one of the species' morphology over the other. As for combining a fungus and a plant? Isn't there a song by Duran Duran called "Cannabis and Mushroom DNA Just Don't Mix?"
"Congress shall make no law restricting the freedom of trade, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, nor shall any property be taken for public use whatsoever."
-John Galt


 
 
 
 
    godshrink
(Hive Bee)
07-18-00 03:13
No 29837
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

John Galt;  glad you have arrived. You and Mr. Smith an d Mr. Green and Rh0dium gonna
bring it on , in my dreams. a new world order.  We know so little. Sure you'll keep that in mind.
Desperate people would trip, if they could afford it. More than 1/2 of the global human producrs
is desperate. Drugs have no chance of changing the world if they aren't free. Swallow this fact,
love bunnies: the average annual ncome. on our lovely planet, is $1000. Much less in places.
Let us not exclude anyone in our dreams of a better world. Sorry about moralizing.
I hate me for this.

 
 
 
 
    john_galt
(Stranger)
07-18-00 20:15
No 30110
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Godshrink, it is time for me to moralize.
Perhaps this should go in a different forum, but you brought it up. World poverty and drug prohibition spring from the same basic moral fallacy, that a person does not have a right to his/her own life. It is precisely that fallacy that must be eradicated from government. Drugs should be free, like free speech, not like free beer, and if trade were free, they would bee. Furthermore, freedom of trade would solve that little poverty problem too.
End Taxes Today: Launder that Drug money in Belize :)
-John Galt

 
 
 
 
    john_galt
(Stranger)
07-18-00 20:37
No 30117
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

You have my mind a reelin', Rhodium. Now, do you know the name of the enzyme? I am in a library right now, and am primed for doing some protein searching.

-let there be E on earth, and let it begin with me :)
-John Galt

 
 
 
 
    Beaker
(Newbee)
07-19-00 06:29
No 30325
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   


Don't they inject yeast with dna all the time in biotech companies?


Yeah, and 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the time the gene is not expressed properly.


Step 3. This one is hard, you have to get the DNA for the enzyme into the nucleus of the cell. Pay a biochem company to do it for you.


I hope you're rich.

It's a hell of a lot more complicated than just getting the DNA into the nucleous. This technology is about 20 years away from being fully developed. As it now stands, this sort of thing can be done, but is extremely difficult to do in any case, and often can't be made to work in any but the most favorable circumstances. Besides, genetic engineering is only really economical for making complex protein products that are difficult to synthesize in the laboratory, not for making simple, easily synthesizable drugs like MDMA. Super-ergot or Super-opium poppies are more realistic, but you wouldn't need to use genetic engineering techniques, only selective breeding.

 
 
 
 
    godshrink
(Hive Bee)
07-19-00 15:35
No 30474
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

so, i'm gonna keep on analyzing tropical beetles for interesting alkaloids until someone tells me a really good "Eureka" story. For those of you curious about lagrger, cuter creatures, ever wonder how a Koala
can digest eucalyptus leaves and extract everything it needs from them? What on earth is it doing in that stomach? What other beasties live on a diet high in aromatic oils? Best of luck to all of you.

 
 
 
 
    MrGreen
(Stranger)
07-29-00 21:14
No 34496
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Perhaps yeast isn't the right organism. (if it fails 99% of the time as someone said)
Bacteria, however, might be better.  After a weekend of surfing I've found TONS of examples where people put things into bacteria.  (I'm still affectionate towards putting things in the sassy seed due to the fact it contains safrole already.)

Advantages of bacteria:
 Common techniques already in literature (e.g. putting DNA into bacteria, growing conditions, etc)
 Cheap to maintain
 Easy to grow
Disadvantages:
 Would have to extract the product out of bacterial 'soup' (I think these techniques are out there already)
 Would require access to DNA to put into bacteria (e.g. Transaminase enzyme DNA)

Care to add the pro/con list above?

I'd like to know that transaminase enzyme also Rhodium!!

My wish list:
Someone to find enzymes that would help convert dopa to mdma

 
 
 
 
    bizarium
(Hive Bee)
07-30-00 05:27
No 34635
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Godshrink: I think i can dig where you're comoing from... but to extrapolate on your logic, wouldn't we save time investigating insects that are predatory on the insects that are digesting/concentrating favorite alkaloids? If DDT was the desired substance, we would do well to look far down the line on the food chain
Bugs eat plants, fish eaats bug, bigger fish eats fish, bird eats bigger fish, bear eats bird, and so on? Each organism concentrating chemicals. I've heard that polar bears are so far down the chain Or should i say highup on the chain?) tha eating their livers can bee a toxic experience. Bees! Eat not of polar bear liver!
 
 
 
 
    bizarium
(Hive Bee)
07-30-00 05:39
No 34640
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

one would think, if our human prejudices are correct, that the simpler the organism, the easier we can manipulte it. The aids virus has put some craks in that theory, but still, wouldn't viruses bee the place to manipulate for bio-chemical-engineering? Or, how about prions? If yeasts are gonna bee uppity, why not drop lower?

My personal hunch is that the lowliest creatures are reflecting the loftiest intelligence. Our huuman ego prevents us from seeing the obvious: that our liver flukes are smarter than us. After all is said and done, survival is the only I.Q. test we have. So, how ya doin'?
 
 
 
 
    MrGreen
(Stranger)
07-30-00 06:41
No 34660
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Regarding prions and viruses... a quick look at any news website tells me prions are just proteins, not organisms, therefore nothing to modify. (they're just a single entity, not a working machine such as yeast is)
As for a virus, I think they're a parasitic species, incabable of 'surviving' without a host.  They don't have enzymes that modify chemicals, i believe.

Don't flame me if i'm wrong, but i think both of these species are out of the question.

 
 
 
 
    MrGreen
(Stranger)
07-30-00 07:08
No 34668
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

How 'bout this:
Starting with phenylalanine (an amino acid) and ending in almost-mdma:
C6H5-CH3-CH2-CO2H  -1-> HO-C6H5-CH3-CH2-CO2H -2-> HO-C6H5-CH3-CH2-CO2H -3->
               |                                          |                         |               |
               NH3                                      NH3                    HO              NH3

CH3O-C6H5-CH3-CH2-CO2H -4-> CH3O-C6H5-CH3-CH2-CO2H -5-> CH3O-C6H5-CH3-CH2
          |            |                               |             |                             |             |
        HO          NH3                          HO            NH2CH3                  HO            NH2CH3

Reaction: (enzymes)
1 Phenylalanine hydroxylase
2 Tyrosine hydroxylase
3 Catechol-o-methyltransferase (COMT)
4 Phenethylaminen-n-methyltransferase (PNMT)
5 Aromatic amino acid decarboxylase (AAAD)

Just stick these 5 enzymes into bacteria/sassy tree...

Sooooo close!!
->CH3O- and HO- on ring need joining.
->Maybe that last enzyme (AAAD) is unnecessary.  We really need a -CO2H ---> -CH3 enzyme.


My wish list:
 Someone to find enzymes that would help convert dopa to mdma

 
 
 
 
    bizarium
(Hive Bee)
07-30-00 17:41
No 34748
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

I've heard that many viruses survive without a host; some floating around in the ocean.
Perhaps, some of the compounds we seek could bee the by-products of infection? Do yeasts get viral infections? I wish i knew enough about this to flame. Good luck, Mr. Green.
 
 
 
 
    MrGreen
(Stranger)
07-30-00 18:31
No 34752
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Yes a virus can /survive/ for 1000s of years in the ocean, desert, etc.  But it doesn't /duplicate/ until it gets into a organism.
We need something more complex that will have digestive enzymes, like a transaminase, and big enough to hold maybe 10 new ones.  (see my last post for 5 of them)
From what i see, a virus is just DNA wrapped up in a small package.  The package opens once inside a host cell, and the DNA subverts the host cell machinery (enzymes) into duplicating it. Stupid virus can't even duplicate itself!  Truly remarkable that they've survived/thrived!!  Amazing.

As for a virus infecting yeast, i think it can.  A virus can infect plants and bacteria... i don't see why not yeast. 
 
 
 
 
    Fat_Freddy
(Stranger)
08-07-00 19:37
No 37843
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

yes virus' can be used to infect bacteria for our purposes, infact it is one of the main methods used by geneticists and biochemist in genetic engineering.  The basic over view for such a process would be as follows (I think). 

First you would grow the cells of interest (the ones that produce the enzyme of you want, ie rabbit liver enzymes).  Next you would need to create a cDNA library of the cells DNA (a library that only contains the DNA that codes for the expressed enzyme). This is done by liasing (busten them up)your cells  and introducing a pollyT DNA probe (a sequence of DNA that contains only contains thymidine nucleotides)  this will bind to the messenger RNA (RNA that encodes for enzyme expression) from the cells.  Now reverse transcriptase would be added to the mix.  This will bind to the PollyT sequence on the mRNA and use it as a primer and will encode a cDNA copy of the mRNA (have I lost anyone yet).  Ribonuclease H would be added this will degrade the mRNA.  Then Polimerase 1 and ligase will be added wich with out going into it will produce a double stranded DNA copy of all the genes that are expressed in the cell. 

Now we have to introduce this DNA into our plasmid or phage (virus thingies)  this is done by a process known as Terminal transferase I wonít go into it to much as Iím starting to wonder about why I started to write this.  Any way  plasmid vectors are added to the cDNA along with restriction enzymes.   The restrictions enzymes cut up all the DNA (both plasmid and cDNA) in such a way that the cDNA combines with the plamid vector.  This is then added to E. coli or some other bacteria with calcium salts.  The calcium salts make the bacteria permeable to our plasmid vector and vola we have a self replicating library with all the expressed genes from our original cell.

From here you would have to screen the library for the gene of interest using one of many techniques (depending on the gene and what it does you may have to use certain ones)  once you have found the group of bacteria in your library that has the gene you remove it and place it by itself it will the replicate produce a colony that produces shit loads of the enzyme you want.

Of course you could probably just buy these enzymes from companies but when the DEA or what ever restricts their sales those that have their own colonies will have no problems.  

On another note with the above techniques and others it would be quite possible to create bacteria that when placed in safrol could produce MDMA.  Of course the research into creating such bacteria would be expensive (probably) but once a way is found the rest of us could copy the procedure and it would be cheap.  Most of the enzymes, plasmids and probes needed can be bought for not much more than most chemicals.  The best thing would be they would only have to be bought once.  And if the innovation that the hive has applied to them organic chem routes was applied to this we probably wouldnít have to buy these things as they are already in our blood and lying around in mouldy coffee cups.

Anyway thatís my 2 cents   
 
 
 
 
    Fat_Freddy
(Stranger)
08-07-00 19:49
No 37849
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Something else thatís interesting.  Last week my lecture was talking about green chemistry and how companies were using enzymes to create benzene compounds out of glucose yes GLUCOSE.  If someone created bacteria that turned glucose into MDMA say good bye to the war on drugs.  Talk about turning lead into gold.   
 
 
 
 
    placebo
(Hive Addict)
08-07-00 19:56
No 37853
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

SOunds relatively easy actually, surely there is data somewhere on what bacteria/mould/yeast/enzyme/slimey sludge, etc, does what to what molecules!

Then its just a matter of mix and match for our different stages.

RXN 1, bugs eat safrole. blend bugs and extract.
RXN 2, Put yeast into blender.
RXN 3, extract and xtalise.

Simple!


tongue<--If I put this here, people think I'm joking instead of a cunt!
 
 
 
 
    Mr_Smith
(Hive Bee)
08-08-00 03:50
No 37968
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

I really think this can be done, but it requires a team effort. You need people with experience in aquiring chemicals, extraction techniques, and sterile technique (someone good at growing 'shrooms). The thing that makes this worth the herculean effort, is that, upon successful completion, MDMA will be about as easy to produce as beer.

An easier "trial run" might be producing GHB/GBL through fermentaion, since there is probably already an organism that can do this on the right substrate.

cool
 
 
 
 
    bizarium
(Hive Bee)
08-08-00 05:08
No 38013
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Fat Freddy, where have you been? Mr. Smith, can you dig this bent? I'm too stupid to recognize subtle spoof in thes matters. And yet, I can also appreciate Godshrink's angle on this...That with over 1'000'000 species of beetles, there is indeed a good chance that one of them is manufacturing in a way that we like. Hivesters: Any entymologists?
 
 
 
 
    MrGreen
(Stranger)
08-08-00 06:51
No 38072
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Right on Fat_Freddy.  Can you buy the DNA from www.atcc.org  instead of going thru all that work about getting it from cells/transcription/phage blah blah blah.  For example, phenylalanine hydroxylase is at:
    http://www.atcc.org/phage/cds_p.html
So put this into a bacteria and isolate the colony like you said.  Then repeat with DNA for x,y and z.  Pretty soon you have a bateria that produces e.

Anyone know how you'd extract the 'e' from the bacterial junk ??
 
 
 
 
    foxy2
(Hive Bee)
08-08-00 10:49
No 38136
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Getting the methyl amine group on there would be the challenge.  I have not heard of one real organism that can add a methyl amine group.  MDA easier because of rabbit livers. Isolating this gene would be a bitch, probably worthy of a several hundred thousand dollar research grant.  Someone call up Paul Allen, he is the only one with the funds and the right politics to make this happen. 


"Vote Libertarian"
 
 
 
 
    MrGreen
(Stranger)
08-08-00 18:55
No 38233
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   


>Getting the methyl amine group on there would be the challenge.
No challange.  Lots of enzymes do this. (PNMT from my rxn in earlier post.) Most organisms contain *multiple* N-methyl-transferases I've found.

>Isolating this gene would be a bitch, probably worthy of a several hundred thousand dollar.
Isolating has been done already and is comercially available. (PNMT again)

What people don't seem to be catching on to is:
A)biosynthesis costs a moderate amount -once- then virtually nothing ever again.
B)the technology, methods, and skills are available NOW.

If someone new the rabbit transaminase enzyme name (from shulgin/pikhal) we'd be rolling. (i don't have the book and can't find it in his published articles)
Alternatively, if someone new an enzyme that would close the ring structure (my earlier post) we'd also be rolling.  What the hell is this reaction even called?!  (ring closure)

CH3-O-R                         O-\
          |             --->  H2C    R
        HO                         O-/
 
 
 
 
    MrGreen
(Stranger)
08-09-00 04:36
No 38437
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   


There are people out there taking the first steps (putting DNA into the bacteria):
  Biochemical characterization of recombinant human phenylalanine hydroxylase produced in E. coli.
  J Biol Chem. 1987

There are bacteria out there (Chromobacterium) doing our work for us:
  Cloning and expression of Chromobacterium violaceum phenylalanine hydroxylase in E. coli and
  comparison of amino acid sequence with mammalian aromatic amino acid hydroxylases. J Biol Chem. 1991
(don't ask me why chromobacteria has ph-hydroxylase in its genes, i have no idea, can't imagine it needs it for adrenaline/dopamine production)
 
 
 
 
    Mr_Smith
(Hive Bee)
08-09-00 19:38
No 38648
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

"Mr. Smith, can you dig this bent?"

Yep. Freddie seems to know his molecular biology.
 
The part about the blood and moldy coffee cups is a joke, though.

I'd love to do experiments like this, but right now my living conditions aren't conducive to it. You need a lab to carry out this kind of work... room for lots of culture jars and petri dishes and such. Granted, a lot of the equipment is commonplace or can be improvised: an incubator from a cooler with a thermometer and an adjustable heating pad, a centrifuge from an old blender, a large pressure canner for an autoclave, etc...etc... Someone might be able to pull it off in their basement.

Oh yeah, and isolating the gene /should/ be easy, beacuse safrole is toxic. By placing your randomly transformed organisms on a media with a high safrole content, selection should take care of the rest, without the need to slice in an antibiotic resistance gene and all that jazz.



cool



 
 
 
 
    foxy2
(Hive Bee)
08-10-00 00:25
No 38725
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

It just might work if someone knew of promiseing bacterial strains, shooting in the dark would be next to impossible.  Most promiseing bacteria could probably be conditioned to grow in saffrole, the proper aminoacid amendments may promote the amination.

I have no idea what im talking about

 
 
 
 
    cathhead
(Stranger)
09-10-00 21:44
No 50617
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

if aphid droppings (after nibbling on saf.) were to be made an effective means of production it would seem that the first requirement would be a massively enlarged species of aphids.
these extra-large aphids would perhaps have an increased intelligence and may catch on to the fact that they are slaves in actuallity. this may then lead to an uprising of aphids, who in a remarkably human-like revenge action may decide to destroy not only us humans but also the entire race of ladybugs who have been hellbent on keeping the righteous aphid down!
arise and fight my aphid brethren! i will support you, and even aid you in your cause! i will change my diet to be leafy vegetation like yours! i will dust the homes of my neighbors with "human-acides" to keep them from further destroying the few remaining reserves of prime vegetation!
all who would join us- the time is NOW!!!

or perhaps i should simply stop using so much speed when watching insect documentaries on the discovery channel.


if you find yourself alone, in fields of alisian...
do not be troubled! for you are already dead!
 
 
 
 
    Mr_Smith
(Hive Bee)
09-11-00 22:59
No 51027
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

I like you already, cathhead.

cool
 
 
 
 
    dazey
(Hive Bee)
09-12-00 17:47
No 51356
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

You kick ass, cathead!
dazey


Please give thanks to our matron Saint "Our Lady of The Blinding Light"
 
 
 
 
    Fuchem
(Skink Bard)
09-30-00 08:06
No 55900
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Marry me Cathhead!


"To be the sum of all parts, in one place, at one time" - Andrew Graybeal
 
 
 
 
    homunculus
(Hive Bee)
10-14-00 10:26
No 60053
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Forget genetically modifying other organisms- what if you could develop a virus that would insert a gene to produce MDMA (or whatever other drugs) into HUMAN cells...

Infect yourself, then spread the love to the entire planet. That is the next step in our evolution...

 
 
 
 
    bizarium
(Hive Bee)
10-14-00 19:39
No 60151
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

Homunculus may bee jesting, but for real he's hit the nail on the head. It is truly us that needs the egineering work. The other beasties are ok, for the most part.

Thing is, we humans haven't even messed with natural selection much. Might bee a good idea to try some of that before manipulating the fine points.

How many people breed with any for thought for the combined genetic's effect on the zygote?

Mixing up the gene pool would bee a good start. Seemed to work for Tiger Woods; at least for his golf game.
 
 
 
 
    Teonanacatl
(Newbee)
10-15-00 20:42
No 60375
      Re: Not insects! Trees!  Bookmark   

I've brought this whole topic up a couple times before here, and have given the information that THERE ARE plant species out there producing amphetamines...last time I was here I went on about Acacia rigidula (should still be in the archives) since then I have found one other species which was found to produce amphetamine, methamphetamine, paramethoxyamphetamine, parahydroxyamphetamine, N,N-dimethylamphetamine and 3,4-dimethoxy-5-hydroxyamphetamine...what more could you want in terms of enzymes (hell, it even produces mescaline, and A. rigidula also produces DMT). Rhodium...what was the reference for that rabbit liver enzyme? If a cDNA has been produced for this enzyme it could be used to search for similar enzymes in this species and determine whether this is the pathway being used in these species...


EC 2.1.1.XX
EC 1.14.XX.X