halfapint (Stranger)
07-12-00 14:27
No 27907
      Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

Who says submerged culture of Claviceps is preferable to exploiting profuse native morning glories to get lysergic goodies?

SWIM wanted to check the morning glories of her native environment, on a hunch. The hunch came from persistent reports of allergy / toxicity at the touch of morning glory foliage, in Mesoamerica and in North America. Large effects from trace amounts is a lysergic specialty, and mg's don't have a bunch of other bad alkaloids in them. Everybody says morning glory seeds only, and then just from certain varieties.

So thinking such thoughts, SWIM hopped out and gathered up a bunch of wild plants, genus ipomoea. She performed extraction procedures on the first 4 spp. of wild or feral mg's she found, with 2 domestic varieties, blue and purple, for comparison.

So SWIM extracted in this wise: the air-dried plant material was macerated, then moistened with 0.1 N sodium carbonate aq. to free the base. The material was percolated in a column with 1 liter petroleum ether added dropwise over 6 hours. Dilute acid, SWIM said 0.02 N HCl, was used to extract the hopeful-amide from the nonpolar solvent, in three vigorous washings (200, 200, 100 ml) in a 2-liter bottle. Coincidentally, that same bottle was used as separatory funnel, by inverting it and carefully loosening the cap.

But that ain't the point. The point is, that SWIM worked under black light all she could, to see what was going on. She saw florescence in the layers, giving visual feedback on the progress of the separations. The more concentrated the alkaloid, the brighter it glowed, typical of the indole ring alkaloids. In this case, SWIM figured glow meant LAA, lysergic acid amide, because morning glories don't have any appreciable amounts of any other lysergic acid derivatives, nor any other indole alkaloids, nor any other alkaloids at all.

So after the brightly-glowing aqueous fraction was cut out, SWIM made the solution basic with ammonia, giving a flocculent precipitate which took forever to settle out. But it glowed.

SWIM did this on all 6 plant materials, and the situation was the same with all the extracts of morning glory whole plants. Making the same type extraction on crushed domestic seeds did produce a greater concentration of product, as might be expected.

But I says to Swim, I says look. The respectable books and sources and stuff all say it ain't true, you can't get lysergic stuff except from the seeds, and just certain kinds of seeds, and better you just go score Hawaiin Wood Rose and forget plain old morning glories, but you just proved them wrong. Six times out of six tries, you got glowing alkaloids from the leaves, and vines, and stems, and tendrils, and seed cases, and stuff like that all mixed together. So is somebody trying to hide something, or did you just get lucky?

SWIM says, well fuck that, the real reason to use morning glories is because there's only one compound worth worrying about, but if you use ergot you need to fool with seventeen different types of ergotosnotalines.

Well this is a cliff hanger, and SWIM isn't real happy about using ammonia because it makes the ppt. way too puffy and hard to filter for the next stage, but she just persisted with the same technique so all the batches would be treated the same, so she could compare them.

Next time I spot her, I'll ask her how it's going.
Half-a-Pint

Half a pint's a half a pound, a half the world around, around.
 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Stranger)
07-12-00 14:48
No 27911
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

In lysergic chemistry, anything big enough to see, is big enough to matter.
Half-a-Pint

Half a pint's a half a pound, a half the world around, around.
 
 
 
 
    Jetson
(Hive Bee)
07-12-00 20:44
No 28003
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

did anyone partake of any of the extracts?  curiouser and curiouser......

the devil is so lonely...mad
 
 
 
 
    Lilienthal
(Moderator)
07-13-00 00:24
No 28066
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

Very cool cool experiments! Could you give us the species and the amount of biomass (dry or wet weight) you extracted? It would be very interesting to estimate the alkaloids concentrations in the different sources. Did you compare the intensities / concentrations / weights? Could you give us the results?
Btw., 'Normal' indole alkaloids are not fluorescent. It's specific for lysergic acid alkaloids.
smile

 
 
 
 
    zephler
(Hive Bee)
07-13-00 00:56
No 28074
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

just a few questions... there seems to be some confusion on what morning glory contains, is it lysergic acid (the carboxylic acid), lysergic acid amines, lysergic acid amides, or mixtures of all?  If it does contain other lysergic substances other than the desired carboxylic acid, then I assume they have to be (well should be) converted to the carboxylic acid?

 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Stranger)
07-13-00 03:38
No 28115
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

I figure I can't get too specific with specifics. Certain aspects of my personal life may be sensitive to eg. cross referencing species abundance by geographical distribution et al. Dig? Morning glories are endemic to Southern woods, and grow as a predominant weed species in Midwestern cornfields. They grow in disturbed forest lands in North America generally. They grow in ditches. The Southeast has such an abundance of species, they even outnumber Central American species, the genus must be considered indigenous. Go downhill, look for a watercourse, you'll find them. There is even a degenerate red species which has lost its leaves and foliage, and grows on tree bark as a saprophyte. Also introduced species thrive, in all regions, when they get out.

The amount of plant material was ~100 grams in each case, perhaps a bit less because this was dry weight and herbaceous materials lose a lot of weight when they dry. Yes there were differences between the species, but as I mentioned I don't expect to provide this particular bit of documentation.

Just call me grumpy,
Half-a-Pint

Half a pint's a half a pound, a half the world around, around.
 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Stranger)
07-13-00 03:43
No 28119
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

Morning glories contain no significant contaminants to conceivably compete with an extraction for d-lysergic acid amide, LAA (sched. I). Really.
Half-a-Pint

Half a pint's a half a pound, a half the world around, around.
 
 
 
 
    Mr_Smith
(Hive Bee)
07-13-00 11:28
No 28266
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

Kudos Halfapint! A most intriguing experiment indeed!

One question, however,

Are you /sure/ that the only compound fluorescing is lysergic acid amide? You sound knowledgeable, and I take it that you cannot be observing the red fluorescence of chlorophylls, because they would not be following through the acid/base extraction. 

Your finding seems to support a report that morning glory flowers are mildly psychoactive.

Keep up the good work!


 
 
 
 
    zephler
(Hive Bee)
07-14-00 01:14
No 28486
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

so then a question arises... a good method for converting LAA to LSA ?

 
 
 
 
    foxy2
(Hive Bee)
07-14-00 01:46
No 28492
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

So when does swim want to go out on a date, she sounds cool.  ;)

"trip not equal to tryptamine, tryptamine equals trip"
 
 
 
 
    Mastermind
(Hive Bee)
08-08-00 03:43
No 37964
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

These morning glories are really taking off.


 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Stranger)
08-09-00 20:51
No 38673
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

OK, got a chance to do a little research in the best and most productive information repository on the planet, the old Hive.

Here is a really and truly Reference to show that my dream (mentioned earlier) was not merely the delerious hallucination of an acid-starved brain.

From the Chemistry Discourse, KrZ posted 02-25-2000 09:07 AM on the old Hive:

    
The last reference I have refers to isolation of ergot alkaloids from Ipomoea violoacea:

Moekatis et al, Biochem. Physiol. Pflanzen, 1973, 164, 248.

Seeds:
-pulverized seeds defatted in pet. ether for 5 hrs.
-1 g of this material shaken 3X (each for 1 hr.) w/ 20mL of (2g tartaric acid in 30 mL H2O, 70 mL acetone) mix
-combined extracts heated on H2O bath (55C) to expell acetone
-tartaric acid soln. shaken 3X w/ anhydrous ether, then basified (pH 8-9) w/ NH4OH
-from this soln' alks extracted 3X w/ 10 mL DCM
-combined extracts reduced to 1 mL and chromatographed

Roots, Leaves, Stems:

-pulverized material (15g) wetted w/ 3% NH4OH
-extracted w/ 200 mL DCM in Soxhlet for 6 hrs
-condensed to 20 mL & shaken 4X each w/ 10mL 2% tartaric acid
-total of 40 mL soln. extracted 3X each w/ 10mL anhydrous ether
-tartaric acid extract made basic w/ NH4OH (pH 8-9) & shaken 3X w/ 10 mL DCM
-total of 30 mL DCM extract condensed to 0.3 mL & chromatographed...


so there. I know, there's no results of a quant. nature in this brief excerpt, even as I gave no quantities, but the point is qualitative. There are ergotogoodies in m.g. vegetation, and in my experience that is the rule and not the exception.

Otherwise, why would the working pros who did this real published chemistry have bothered to mention extracting from the vegetation, in their peer-reviewed paper? They might have got a wild notion, like SWIM did, and done the legwork, like SWIM did, but if they got zero yields (unlike SWIM), they likely as not would have quietly let it drop when it came time for the writeup.

I haven't seen their paper and don't know their results. But by my guesses into scientist behavior, my bet would go that they found alkaloids also. No point in chromotagraphing 0.3 ml of nothing...

Half-a-Pint



Half a pint's a half a pound, a half the world around, around.
 
 
 
 
    foxy2
(Hive Bee)
08-10-00 01:04
No 38737
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

Yep
Your probably right, its too bad they only published successes.  Just imagine how much wasted effort could be avoided if they published failures also.  So bees keep posting them failures, they are educational.

Halfapint you never responded to my request blush
 
 
 
 
    FILO
(Hive Bee)
08-10-00 05:01
No 38810
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

But whats the best way to make Diethylamine out of ethanol lsa is no problem to get?
 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Stranger)
08-10-00 08:36
No 38867
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

I posted this a few weeks ago.

Post 27267 (halfapint: "Dialkyl Amines", Chemicals & Equipment)

You make yr ethanol into a halide or sulfate like on Rhodium's site

http://rhodium.lycaeum.org/chemistry/methyliodide.txt

but honestly this kind of chemistry is not for you. You just have no business messing with ergot alkaloids if you need hand holding on elementary methods like that. Do something else for your learning experience. This stuff is not simple and it is not easy and you cannot do it by recipe. Make eleven successful runs on three or four other types of honey, come back as a journeyman apprentice, and then you will be ready to start learning what you need to know to start your masterwork.

Say it once, say it always, there ain't no recipe for this. There do not exist a set of instructions you can follow to achieve success with what you want to make. If you have not mastered this general field to the expert level of knowledge and experience, you will find here only the most expensive way to make a very dangerous mess. Maybe you have heard this before, but this time believe it. This is not the place to learn clandestine chemistry. You've stepped into the grad school here.

Half-a-Pint


Half a pint's a half a pound, a half the world around, around.
 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Stranger)
08-10-00 08:42
No 38870
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

Uh, hey, Mastermind? From yr foto it looks like those vines have trilobate (three-lobed) leaves. Morning glories mainly have distinctive "heart-shaped" leaves. That looks like a different kind of vine. Dig them up and reseed, uh for next year.

Half-a-Pint


Half a pint's a half a pound, a half the world around, around.
 
 
 
 
    foxy2
(Hive Bee)
08-10-00 11:32
No 38924
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

frown
 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Stranger)
08-10-00 14:55
No 38953
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

Po' Foxy! What's a girl have to do around here to get a date with a chemist?

Half-a-Pint


Half a pint's a half a pound, a half the world around, around.
 
 
 
 
    foxy2
(Hive Bee)
08-10-00 22:52
No 39078
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

A half a chemist is half mole half a molecule around
tongue
Foxy ChE

 
 
 
 
    Mr_Smith
(Hive Bee)
08-11-00 18:35
No 39410
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

Mastermind's vines are definately Convolvulaceae, but they don't look like I. violacea. Looks like bindweed to me.
 
 
 
 
    Sleepy_MT
(Stranger)
08-17-00 03:30
No 41753
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

Masterminds plants are I. indica, yes thats right INDICA! but not weed, Ipomea indica, and well they rarely seed, (must b a f1 hybrid)
 
 
 
 
    Mastermind
(Hive Bee / Eraser)
08-19-00 04:10
No 42574
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

I found them oringinally in a corn field.  The flowers looked a lot like heavenly blue morning glories.  Also, when the vines died they had hundreds of dried seed pods on them.  I took a garbage bag full of vines home, pulled the seed pods off the vines, rolled the seeds down a record album (like cleaning pot seeds), blew the chaff away, etc.  and got probably about a thousand seeds.  The seeds are kind of short and fat not like the ones in the picture below.  I've also grown Heavenly Blue morning glories from seeds I got at the hardware store (looked like the ones in the picture below).  The leaves definately looked different.  The ones I recently planted have begun to flower so I'll try to get a picture.



 
 
 
 
    Mastermind
(Hive Bee / Eraser)
08-19-00 16:55
No 42804
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

Here's two pictures of the flowers.  They look like morning glories to me.




 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Hive Bee)
08-20-00 03:50
No 43027
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

OK yer right --- I've bypassed the vines with this shape leaf. Next time I'll know.


Half a pint's a half a pound, a half the world around, around.
 
 
 
 
    Jason
(Stranger)
08-26-00 01:54
No 45298
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

All members of the convulvaceae family have lysergic acids. I'm dead serious. SWIM should try to extract lsa from other species of morning glories and not just ipomoeas. Dodders even have very small amounts of lsa. Anyone that can do the chemistry, please try some different genuses. I hope your research works out, swim.
 
 
 
 
    Benway
(Stranger)
09-03-00 02:15
No 48264
      Re: Morning Glory Whole Plant Extract  Bookmark   

the mg's in the photos are ivy-leaved morning glories, Ipomoea hederacea. i have no info on alkaloid content for this species. I. tricolor (I. violacea) is the usual species used as an entheogen...pearly gates is supposedly more potent than heavenly blues.