dwarfer (Dimishmented)
08-15-00 22:24
No 41279
      Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   



========================================


This simple cyclical set up was in my mind this morning as a
completed deal:

It is an elaboration of what was being grasped at in earlier communications.

Two idential ehrinmyers in buckets:

The one on the right in salted ice

The one on the left in dry iced alcohol, and a few ML of alcohol inside too. (To effect heat transfer for the first arriving gasses)

the one on the right gets it's aqueous ammonia air-bubbled (sparging):

because of the vapor pressure differentials (between water and ammonia at -5C) the ammonia/air mixture  is selectively pulled from solution and bubbled (in the left hand ehrlinmyer) through the alcohol and then,  as it accumulates, ammonia  itself:

What to do with the exit from THIS flask?

Why plumb it back into the entrance to the pump.


Many cheapo aquarium pumps have this in and out feature: although the diaphrams may have a short life.

There are also "peristalic" pumps that do a rolling squeeze on flexible tubing:
although the tubing may not be to happy being squeezd at lower temperatures.

But that is a "build" problem: this is still design.

I'll bet a quarter kneejoint  ":<) this will work:

I think that one pass will make the NH3 useable.

If not,  the left hand flask once full

Can be put back in the right hand position

And the process re-done.

(Or, an identical flask to the left hand one can  be placed in series.....)


=========================

The "end point" or diminishing returns will   be noted in the right hand flask when ice crystals
start forming: this will mean the freezeing point depression of the NH3 is waning.

Imagine doing this:

You set it up with plenty of ice, both wet and dry  ":<)

Let it run:

You take a nap

eat dinner

lay your wife or main squeeze

drink a beer or two or six

wander back out when you feel like it.


Contrasted with: 

hangovers from too much smelling of salt fumes

arduous shaking of the reaction chamber with fertilizer and bases.

intense watching of the proces to make sure nothing untoward ocurrs.

lifting bending and chemical hazards

==========

I'll endeavor to find vapor pressures at -5C or so to figure out what % will be going over in "first
pass"

I'll bet a nickle it will be 90% one pass, but I'm not positive..

So it takes 3 passes?

BFD.....


dwarfer

===============

If the erudite denizens of this adventuresome forum would please critique this it would be appreciated. 
 
 
 
 
    dwarfer
(Dimishmented)
08-15-00 22:29
No 41285
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   



FINALLY a project Osmium can do:

NO GLUE!

YEA!
 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Moderator)
08-15-00 23:24
No 41299
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

BIG brain fart dwarfer!

From the right flask you remove a (hypothetical) 90:10 mixture of NH3:H2O. This vapor is sucked to the left flask where it condenses because it is quite cold in there. Since NH3 has a higher vapour pressure than H2O you now pump almost pure NH3 back into the right flask, while the H2O stays frozen in the left flask. The NH3 concentration will rise in the right one, not in the left flask, until a steady state is reached and both flasks will be in equilibrium. Maybe you can hook up a few of them to reach a sufficient theoretical plate number, but I doubt it.
Of course it all depends on vapour pressures, I will try to find some numbers for your futile experiment.
 
 
 
 
    dwarfer
(Dimishmented)
08-15-00 23:47
No 41308
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   



Damn OS: You gotta quit talkin' wit' dat' texas drawl: peeple 'l think you are FROM there, dontchaknow. cool

=============

==========



I MIGHT be in error because of ionic bonding in flask de la right:

maybe the vapor pressures of the two molecules are not separable.

BUT since my understanding is that there is NH3 AND NH4-OH, there might be a chance that it would work.

On the other hand, if your theory is true, I would see no advantage in keeping the right hand flask cold at all: and I probably would return to my pipe lined bucket and condense ice inside the 1/2 inch tubes: certainly there is a ton more surface area for ice to condense on.

Either way, I appreciate your opinion, although I hope you are wrong.

"DISILLUSIONMENT IS A POSITIVE STATE OF BEING"

The alternative of course being IN illusion. crazy

dwarfer
 





 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Moderator)
08-16-00 00:16
No 41319
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Vapor pressure of ice:
0C........................6.1129mbar
-5C.......................4.02mbar
-10C.....................2.60mbar
-20C.....................1.03mbar
-30C.....................0.38mbar
-40C.....................0.13mbar
-50C.....................0.039mbar
-60C.....................0.011mbar
-70C.....................0.003mbar
-80C.....................0.001mbar

Sublimation/vapor pressures:
A)H2O
T/K..............................P/Pa
190..............................0.032(solid)
210..............................0.702s
225..............................4.942s
240..............................27.28s
250..............................76.04s
260..............................195.8s
270..............................470.1s
273.15..........................611.66s

B)NH3
T/K..............................P/kPa
160..............................0.1(solid)
170..............................0.4s
180..............................1.2s
190..............................3.5s
195.4............................6.12s
200..............................8.7
210..............................17.9
220..............................34.1
230..............................60.8
240..............................103
250..............................165
260..............................256
270..............................381
280..............................552
290..............................774
300..............................1062

1kPa = 7.50062 Torr
100kPa = 1000hPa = 1000 mbar = 1 bar
 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Moderator)
08-16-00 00:33
No 41324
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Let's assume the right flask is at -13C and the NH3 and the water don't change or influence each others properties (which of course is dead wrong tongue
 
 
 
 
    Uncle_Ho_Monga
(Stranger)
08-16-00 02:28
No 41356
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

OH FRIG

0 Kelvin is-273 or something??

I'll have to get out my musty old books...

So essentially if you leave 500 ML of 30% NH3 out in the open until it evaporates to 200 ML, it will still be 30%??

Oh shit: well, that's what these forums are for: getting fuc-.... eh I mean getting edumacated.

What a nice drawing going to waste....<snif>
 
 
 
 
    PVnRT_NC8
(FMAN)
08-17-00 09:41
No 41877
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

the haber ammonia process is rather fundemental to generating ""Anhydrous ammonia""  I hate to be the bad news but man we went through all that with the anhydrous hcl stuff .........Please figure this out faster.......

I heating mantel not a stave a hot bit of steel wool coated with catalyst is used I think....a volume of hydrogen and nitrogen "easy to get compared too....."

So ya mix the two pass them over the electrowire...essentially a nicrome type wire

then compress the gasses until the liquid forms
this is done in an inert atmosphere or everything is like flame dry........

It really should not pose any special problems it be like generating "ANHYDROUS HCL GAS"  Not somewhat anhydrous gas""

If ya cracked the container and there was moisture it would possibly explode or create an ammonia fountain....simply mixing the gasses more hydrogen and lighting a flame in there outa produce at least a minimial ammount of the said gass........howver keeping the water out is the general idea

the ice idea might work to provide some sutiable meterial for a reduction....but the gass making is not all that difficult,,,certainly like light a match to the hydrogen and nitrogen is somewhat dangerous so as allways proceede with caution


A010
 
 
 
 
    Tasty
(Hive Bee / Eraser)
08-23-00 01:44
No 43985
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Wow, is it possible I understood, nah, maybe caught a ~~brief~~ glimpse of the FMAN genius into my neurons for a fleeting few seconds there???????
 
 
 
 
    BEELZEBUB
(Stranger)
08-24-00 02:20
No 44403
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Ammonia synthesis via any method such as the Haber (or Kellogg, Linde etc) all require pressures of approx. 80 bar and temps of approx 500 deg C. Lower pressures means the reaction rate will be tooooooo long and lower temps decrease conversion.
I guess what I'm trying to say is you have zero chance of viably producing a decent amount of NH3 in less than a year without some pretty specialised equipment. Conversion per pass in the processes above only yield 13-20% as it is.

If you do choose to proceed, I wish you the best of luck!!!
 
 
 
 
    Mister_Clean
(Trinity's less significant half.)
08-26-00 08:55
No 45425
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Arent we missing something here...?

why sit there and WAIT for the ammonia to come out?

Ya got 50 LBS of NAOH...

remember "the stronger base liberates the weaker base from it's salt".

Dwarfer, take that big ass condensor coil you ALREADY HAVE, and put it inline here.

In fact, do everything JUST LIKE the d-clean machine, except...

Replace the fertilizer with NAOH, and fill your "base sprayer" with 28% ammonium hydroxide.

WHAM! ammonia as fast as you can spray.

And as for CaCl2, its sold at builders suppliers for around $9/gallon, or like 22 bucks for a 50 LB BAG. Do you need it cheaper than that?

Or ask REAL nice and maybe I'll loan you my tank.smile

you keep goin round in circles with the ammonia generator thing, you will always come back to the same place- adding a strong base to an ammonia salt.

The fert thing is a tough way to obtain your salt because its got all the other crap in it. I used it because it (like myself) was cheap.

However there are LOTS of ammonia salts out there which are purer, and you could even make your own.

PS: on the subject of dry ice, CaCl2 and ice mix was tried by myself with excellent results. I highly recommend it (and AT LEAST 100lbs of ice)

Clean.


available in ammonia and new RP/I scented varieties...
 
 
 
 
    dwarfer
(Dimishmented / Eraser)
08-30-00 21:14
No 47200
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   



Thanks Clean for your excellent advice and cousel in ammoniacal matters.

No doubt the D-Clean machine will work : and your refining suggestions are enough to make me want to set it back up again and avoid the damn  fertilizer. 

HEE HEE:

I'd like to take you up on the

 "you will always come back to the same place- adding a strong base to an ammonia salt."

I THINK I can crystallize out the ice from vapour phase in the large tubed section: and condense real close to absolute ammonia in the small tube...

Think of a bet you would like to make on this point that I can afford to  lose if I'm wrong: smile

dwarfer
 
 
 
 
    Mister_Clean
(smartass)
09-01-00 02:18
No 47648
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

How's this:

I'll bet that out of any method possible for obtaining NH3 from NH4OH, the MOST effective one is gonna be

NH4oh+Hcl---nh4cl+h20 (evap)----nh4cl+NaOH=NH3+NaCl+H2O
which is easily done in THIS:
smile

Clean.


available in ammonia and new RP/I scented varieties...
 
 
 
 
    dwarfer
(Dimishmented / Eraser)
09-02-00 02:20
No 47953
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Well damn: I just CAN'T accept that bet.

i DO have some nekked pictures: but she ain't my wife.

Coulda been, though.

Never mind: long story.

Hell, Clean: now we gotta argue about "most effective" versus "easiest"

Now if I can set this sucker up and come back in the morning with all the good stuff separated for me with no other effort on MY behalf:

Will that give me a win??

Just send ME the nekked pic o your wife:

None of these other bozos desoive it:

and I'd treat it RIGHT dontchaknow......

(slobber drool)

<whack whack
    lotsa my friends call me whacked......

 
 
 
 
    Mister_Clean
(Mr Clean's better half.)
09-02-00 02:43
No 47960
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Dwarfer, my dear dimishmented freind,...

before you so quickly dismiss my suggestion,

take a cup of that aqua-ammonia, and toss a few grams of NaOH into it. Watch the NH3 go WHOOOOSHHH!!!

then take a sniff of that cup. NO MORE NH3!!!

compare that to the time it takes for the stuff to 'vaporate.

Really,
Clean.




available in ammonia and new RP/I scented varieties...
 
 
 
 
    dwarfer
(Dimishmented / Eraser)
09-03-00 23:33
No 48507
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   



OK Sum' bitch:

SEE: Here's my thought:

What you say is true: you gwine get a blast o 'monia out fer sure:

Then I gotta hope the unit will handle the throughput.

AND IF it don't PEEYOU


MY WAY, (I'm thinkin but that does not always serve me well I MUST say: cool

fulfilling your thought

=====================


OK so I might be making a LITTLE fun of it:

but dat's de way it is....

=-====================

<<boner in hand looking for fantastical woman:

OOOH THERE SHE IS

c'MERE wooooooman


I gots SUmpin' to SHOW ya:

C'mon and HOLD ME TIGHT

MMMMMmmmmmm   You MOVE me


 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Stonium's / Changer)
09-03-00 23:56
No 48512
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Dwarfer, what you are trying here is nothing but a distillation. Have you already read those chapters in your books like I told you to do? Can NH3 and water be separated completely by distillation? Not sure about that. And what totally eludes me is the reason why water will freeze while the NH3 will stay gaseous. In my corner of the world NH3 solubility in water rises when the temp drops. Might be different in the US, since meth HCl is neutral in that country too according to many meth board posts wink

 
 
 
 
    Mister_Clean
(smartass)
09-04-00 22:15
No 48741
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Very true,

solubility of gasses increase as the temp of the liquid decreases.




available in ammonia and new RP/I scented varieties...
 
 
 
 
    dwarfer
(Dimishmented / Eraser)
09-05-00 19:43
No 49026
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Dwarfer, what you are trying here is nothing but a distillation. Have you already read those chapters in your books like I told you to do? Can NH3 and water be separated completely by distillation?

Well, from what I read: or at least from my interpretation of what I have read, in gaseous form the two species can be separated by their different condensing / crystallization temperatures.

I HAVE to admit and it hurts me to do so:

that I have a wet sticky hand for my efforts. (EEEEEwww..)

The water vapour continuosly froze up in the 1/2 inch tube: allowing no further gas flow transport to the colder Nh3 condenser section:

I think if I dicked around further with better temperature control for the water/ice condenser section it still could be made to work:

but I AM tired of wasting the time it takes to set up run and sustain the bitter disappointment of a sticky woofy slimey hand.

Nature is a fickle feminine wiley woman: alluring, winkin, getting me aroused: promising great things: then she turns cold, ices up, and causes problems.

It's an age old syndrome: 

'Scuse me: I'm going off and be depressed by myself now......


<<<<Sadwarfer
 
 
 
 
    Antibody2
(Hive Bee)
09-08-00 21:59
No 50122
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Hey dwarfer, there is a great thread for the depressed over in the general discourse


Jimi loves ya
 
 
 
 
    wayupnorth
(Hive Bee)
09-15-00 10:36
No 52368
      Re: Novel NH3 separation?  Bookmark   

Is it that hard to get NH3 in OZ land ?  I dreamt up 150 lbs of annhydrous to replace all this freon filled equipment I own, but like I was telling placebo I don't know as I would want to take the chance of taking down a plane by mailing it in an unmarked package.


Duh, Uh whattttttt tit you say?