dormouse (Member)
04-22-00 02:44
No 108538
      1-Benzylpiperazine.HCl from freebase? -ReFlux  Bookmark   


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Author  Topic:   1-Benzylpiperazine.HCl from freebase? 
ReFlux
Member   posted 10-21-98 07:21 PM          
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If one wanted to convert 1-Benzylpiperazine (BZP) to its hydrochloride salt, and isolate it in crystalline form, how could this be accomplished?
Would BZP + IPA + conc. HCl + Ether or Acetone (ala shulgin) work to cause precip. of BZP.HCl?

-ReFlux


beagle boy
unregistered   posted 10-22-98 09:54 AM           
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Yep. Just don't add too much conc. HCl.
 
Mobius
Member   posted 10-29-98 07:49 PM          
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A la Shulgin will work... The problem is not making the hydrochloride (actualy the dihydrochloride) it is just that THIS SHIT IS NOT ACTIVE!!! You will get some anoying cardiovascular effects from it but NO high (at least not under 600 mg and probably not above eighter...)
I hope you did not read about its activity on the BB this summer because the post was most probably bullshit... (Somebody wanted to know once and for all if that shit was active and said it (at 100 mg) was just like meth, wishing somebody would try it and post the real results...

I hope you didn`t bought a kilo of that shit!

-Mobius


Rhodium
Administrator   posted 10-31-98 12:03 AM          
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Not just like meth, but the stuff is indeed very active. Somewhere inbetween pemoline and amphetamine in effect.
 
Commodium
Member   posted 10-31-98 02:11 PM          
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Reflux: are you considering that "liquid" BZP product offered by JLF?
 
Mobius
Member   posted 10-31-98 05:02 PM          
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The product I tried was from a reputable source... The dihydrochloride had been made "a la Shulgin" and the pH checked (pH was around 5) just before adding the ether... Some dihydrochloride add already precipitated before ether addition...
Pleeeeeeease somebody help me!

I just can`t see where I fail (god, I think I know how to make an HCl salt !?!)

By the way all my apologies to everybody I could have offended by aving been maybe a bit too self confident... A perfect being like me has to make at least one mistake in his life 


Mobius
Member   posted 10-31-98 07:10 PM          
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BTW, a friend of mine still has some of that stuff laying around somewhere together with its MD counterpart (that I didn`t even bother testing cause of the result I got from the first compound)
So I`m asking you, oh you the great moderator , to please tell me why, but why it didn`t worked ! I have (mmm, I had...) no tolerance to amphetamine type stimulant and if it is that potent I should have felt it !?! Is only the free base active ? (Pretty scary warning on the label !!! I wouldn`t try smoking the stuff !)

Any refs about the effects of those compounds ?

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease, Mr. Moderator. What`s your secret ?

I can`t wait to try it again !


Mobius
Member   posted 10-31-98 07:14 PM          
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Oh ! I get it ! The company made a mistake when labeling the bottle ! Lucky I didn`t poison myself ! It would have been such a great lose for humanity ! 
 
beagle boy
unregistered   posted 11-01-98 09:10 AM           
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Mobius: what about that MD benzylpiperazine? Has your friend eaten any? This stuff used to be offered by Aldrich cheap and I always wondered about it. I think that it is the metabolite of another drug? Just because benzylpiperazine itself lacks in stimulant activity does not rule out activity for methylenedioxy BZP because MDA and amphetamine have differing mechaninsm of action.
Does anyone know about activity of MD-BZP?

On a side note, someone once told me about a 2-CB/DOB analog of BZP. It was 2,5-dimethoxy-4-Br-benzylpiperazine or maybe the phenyl-piperazine, I can't remember for sure. It was quite potent and (too) long lasting, more similar to DOB than 2-CB.


Rhodium
Administrator   posted 11-01-98 02:35 PM          
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I clearly feel the effects of 100 mg of the hydrochloride, as well as 75 mg of the free base dissolved in lemon juice (tastes awful).
If you don't feel any effects from your BzP, try a larger dose, the individual response to the compound may vary. I have a few texts about the material at my pharmacology page.


Mobius
Member   posted 11-01-98 08:00 PM          
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-BB
My friend hasn't tasted that MD-BZP yet but, seeing how antusiastic you are about it, he might try it tonight  (...and I'll post the results here for you). BTW, this stufff is still distributed by ALDRICH. It is a solid at room temperature. Should my friend just cap it and pop it or should he make the dihydrochloride (which should be less arsh on the stomac)...

By the way, I'm still waiting for an explaination, Rhodium (or any body else)!

Can you back your afirmations ???

Is there anybody who tried this stufff and can testify about its potency!

I love you all anyway

-Moby


Mobius
Member   posted 11-01-98 08:08 PM          
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Thank you very much Rhodium !
I'll tell my friend  to try again !

NB: I would still apreciate a reference (Just one Uncle Rhodium, please, say yes! Pleeeease!)


Rhodium
Administrator   posted 11-01-98 10:33 PM          
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Reference to what? That BzP is active?
Try these:
A comparison of the effects of 1-benzylpiperazine and dexamphetamine on human performance tests. Eur. J. Clin. Pharmacol., 163-169 (1973).
Comparison of the effects of dexamphetamine and 1-benzylpiperazine in former addicts. Eur. J. Clin. Pharmacol., 170-176 (1973).


 
Mobius
Member   posted 11-02-98 12:59 PM          
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I went on your site ! Nice one uncle Rho!
 
dwarfer
Member   posted 03-22-99 08:51 PM          
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I have heard that you can take a cee-gar and up from de tip about an inch or so, pour or otherwise saturate the outside of said smokeable and then fire it up.
The advancing flame front of the glowing tip will volatilize the material admirably, and the fine cee-gar fumes will actually help cover up the detestable taste.

Has a "bite" that is curiously similar to meth, or so I've heard from some people who knew.

Or, you can make some SPEED WEED, but I already talked about that somewhere else.

Like I said there, 1-BZP is underappreciated.

dwarfer


Dr Gonzo
Member   posted 03-23-99 03:19 PM          
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Someone who is not me found that if you pour some BZP freebase onto a pyrex plate, let it sit for about five hours, scraping it all around every 20 minutes or so, it will grab CO2 from the air and form the carbonate salt. Eat 240 mg of the white, chunky powder.
 
Uncle Ho Monga
Member   posted 03-23-99 07:28 PM          
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Ahso, 240 MG make this one fly like kite and see crawleys on skin: no fun. nope nope.
If not scrape every 20 minutes get larger crystals. Still taste real real real real real bad: put in 000 caps first, follow with PLENTY water.

thanking you
UHM


Seedcrystal
Member   posted 03-25-99 12:55 AM          
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Here what I did. Disolved freebase in HCL evaporated HCL and washed with cold EtOH to get huge chunks of glass looking crystals. I get very little effects from 1g, One time I "dreampt" I gave a freind who wanted to try it 300mg and he almost died of an overdose! He started being "lost" in his own little word and eventually would'nt respond to anybody he just sat there rocking back and forth. At one point I think he had some sort of siezure or stroke or something. I'll never give legal drugs away again.
 
Lilienthal
Member   posted 03-25-99 07:08 AM          
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Beagle (sorry, a bit late...): I heard that 3,4-methylendioxy-benzylpiperazine hydrochloride is much like MDMA at/above 700 mg.


born_slippy
Member   posted 11-30-1999 12:53 PM          
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BzP doesn't taste too bad, abit bitter but edible.
If it stings your tongue while you eat it its because it is still very basic (remember its got an extra tertiary nitrogen compared to meth which makes it alot more basic).

I ate about a gram of this stuff and it made my heart beat alot faster.

No euphoria and I have never had a chance to try apmetamines b4.


koretexx
Member   posted 12-01-1999 01:28 AM          
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So we got one person eating a gram with no effects and another triping balls and having strokes off of 300mgs, so what is it is it good or what. Sometimes its got ammonia
in it but people eat it any way nothin like chuggin down some parsons ammonia. So why is this shit even talked about if it sucks, quit makin my mouth water if its a bunch of bullshit. Rhodium I hope your right. Some where between dex and pem would be just right.
 
dwarfer
Member   posted 12-02-1999 06:39 PM          
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1/20 cc to 1/10 cc as measured by a 1 cc insulin syringe, is about right for an unobtrusive perky -u -up mode of being.
I did 2 CC ( abit over if I recall) one frightening day and discovered the realistic "bugs moving under the skin" phenomenon about which I had read. (NOT pleasant!)

Even at this level there was no "euphoria" or even a dexadrine feel goodness about it.

The material will never make to the hit parade of favorites, but it is effective for those times when you need extra focus and drive.

dwarfer


 
koretexx
Member   posted 12-02-1999 10:11 PM          
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perfect then, sounds like its right up my alley.
 
Bromine
Member   posted 12-02-1999 10:53 PM          
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Dwarfffffer:
I am interested in the smoking of Bzp you mention.
Have you ever tried the CO3 salt before? I have smoked small quantites on weed. I have not noticed much, if any effects.
Or will only the freebase work::?


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    fearNloathing
(Newbee)
01-23-01 18:37
No 168954
      Setting the record straight: FOAF-verified BZP I  Bookmark   

Quoting from the Erowid info page on BZP ( http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/piperazines/piperazines_info1.shtml ):


Place 20 grams of liquid benzylpiperazine in a 500 ml glass beaker (no plastic!) and add 100 ml 99% anhydrous isopropylalcohol or methanol, and give it a good stir. Next add 15 ml of hardware store hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) of 30-31% strength, and stir the solution again until it is thorougly mixed. Now, while stirring, add 250 ml of acetone in 50 ml portions. Now white benzylpiperazine hydrochloride crystals will form in the solution. Let the mixture stand in the refrigerator for an hour, break up any lumps of crystals that may have formed, and filter them off with a coffee filter and let the crystals completely dry in the air.


FOAF did exactly that, but with lab-grade reagents and got exactly what they described. Don't remember the reference, but read elshwere BZP-HCL appearance compared to wet snow. That's exactly what it looked like. Due to logistic concerns had to bypass 1-hour refrigeration step, figured was unnecessary since precipitated anyway. Filtered through coffee filters and evaporated. Three independent subjects including the FOAF themselves confirmed that the shit works! (will be an upcoming post on that one)

Second time may have used lower concentration of BZP-freebase, so it got ( Post 200 (Sanger: "BZP stuck in solution!!", Methods Discourse) ) "stuck in solution" as Sanger reported. So, added more HCl and presto, precipitated. Added 10-15 ml more HCL than necessary, figuring that it would yank more of the BZP out of solution. This time, didn't skimp on the refrigeration, and was rewarded with what looked like a bigger yield. Makes sense.

IN BOTH CASES, THIS FOAF PERFORMED THE EXTRACTION IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA. THE GAS GIVEN OFF IS POISONOUS AND FLAMMABLE.

Dear Hive, thanks for all the useful info you (involuntarily) provided. Thanks even to those of you who are snarky misanthropic bee-nises that get their rocks off by sniping at newbees, because you provide much needed comic relief. Haven't been around to snipe back because too busy experimenting. More info about what happens when you take too much BZP, and what to do about it, coming real soon (as soon as FOAF can force themselves to recount the ordeal).



Technology. Liberty. Being all hyper in the snow.
 
 
 
 
    fearNloathing
(Newbee)
01-23-01 19:56
No 168961
      Setting the record straight: FOAF-verified BZP II  Bookmark   

Previous Experiences With BZP:
FOAF was introduced to BZP by a FOAF of their own, who will be referred to as FOAF2. This BZP had no effect FOAF could notice, and the appearance was different from what FOAF crystallized themselves-- yellowish-brown, coarse crystals instead of the spiky-snowy white crystals FOAF got. Then again, FOAF was deliberately trying the smallest doses possible, and in retrospect FOAF things they might have been BZP-carbonate, which FOAF has read is weaker.

Experience I:
This happened early in the morning, after FOAF had 1.5 hours of sleep, due to staying up late the night before. After dumping the filtered precipitate onto a flat plate to dry, FOAF was left with a glass container that had BZP-HCl residue still clinging to the walls. After waiting for it to be completely dry (i.e. not smelling like acetone anymore) FOAF sloshed around some orange juice in it and drank it. The OJ masked the awful flavor and FOAF has an unsubstantiated suspicion that it also accelerated absorbtion. In no more than 10 minutes, FOAF was very alert, motivated, and cheerful. FOAF2 told FOAF that BZP causes appetite loss, dry mouth, and dehydration. FOAF found this to be true and tried to heed FOAF2's advice by drinking plenty of water and forcing themselves to eat. FOAF2 had also suggested supplementing melatonin and 'mood stabilizers' but FOAF didn't have melatonin on them and doesn't know where they can get their hands on modd stabilizers. FOAF attended an 8:30AM class in a technical subject that usually causes FOAF to nod off unless FOAF snorts some ground-up No-Doz (FOAF thinks the gut is a very wasteful way to absorb almost any pharmaceutical-- at least FOAF isn't snorting anymore ephedrine, so fuck off). FOAF was attentive the whole time and really enjoyed that class. FOAF also found that they enjoyed the sensation of grinding their teeth, so they did it. A lot. For the rest of the day. Next FOAF went to work. FOAF found themselves very social, outgoing, and talkative. Unfortunately, FOAF got distracted by something on the computer. FOAF sat there fiddling with web stuff for like FIVE HOURS, fidgeting and grinding their jaw the whole time. FOAF took one bathroom break, and barely made it there without wetting themselves. FOAF eventually tore themselves away from the computer and went home to eat. By evening, FOAF was just starting to slow down. FOAF knocked themselves out with a few melatonins, and woke up early in the morning (4-6 hours later) refreshed and still slightly speedy and euphoric, which lasted for most of that day.
Lesson: if you take too much BZP, you'll get obsessive compulsive, so a trick FOAF uses from now on is to pick something, or a list of things, that they need to get done. Then, FOAF strictly forbids themselves from thinking about anything but what's on the list.
Another Lesson: buy some gum to chew on when you take BZP. That way you'll go easier on your teeth.

Experience II:
FOAF bought some ephedra-extract capsules (the weak-ass herbal kind that seem to be more and more common these days unfortunately) and dumped out the brown gunk for use with some later project maybe. FOAF needed the capsules, you see, so they could give a sample to FOAF2. This is before FOAF figured out how to pack the capsules more efficiently, and was just scooping up powdered BZP-HCl. FOAF2 reported that the stuff was mild, and had a slow onset. Maybe because FOAF2 has a different metabolism, or maybe because FOAF had a different dosage, or maybe it was the orange juice. FOAF2 later told FOAF that the stuff was indeed high quality, though FOAF isn't sure exactly what they meant by that. The next day, FOAF2 reported having a fever, and flu-like symptoms. When they also reported not wanting to drink water and jaw-clenching, FOAF freaked and thought it was the BZP, but FOAF2 said it wasn't, that they were sure it was a cold. FOAF2 later mentioned that they had taken more of the capsules FOAF gave them with no ill effects.

Experience III:
FOAF gave FOAF3 a capsule, and FOAF3 took it after a night of drinking. Reported mild speedy effects. FOAF asked them if this might have been related to the drinking and subsequent hangover in some way, but FOAF3 was positive that the effect was distinct from that. FOAF3 later came back and said they really liked it, and inquired about getting more.

Experience IV:
FOAF now bought some #2 gel capsules from a pharmacy, and began the packaging process in earnest. They scooped up the BZP-HCl into the capsules, then tamped it down with a PalmPilot stylus (all FOAF had on hand at the time). The process was slow and tedious, but FOAF thinks they got more into each capsule that way. An original amount of about half the pop-bottle-full of BZP freebase FOAF ordered from Jfrown yielded 20-25 capsules, counting the lame ephedrine caps FOAF gave away. BZP-HCl is sticky, and now coated FOAF's stuff. FOAF hates to have stuff go to waste. Gagging, FOAF licked their fingers and utensils, causing a brief period of alertness and euphoria.

Experience V:
FOAF needed to be on top of things and get some work/studying done, so FOAF swallowed one of the new capsules. FOAF was feeling very motivated, but was careful to be motivated only about the thing they were supposed to be doing. That worked splendidly, and FOAF got a lot done that morning at work. Unfortunately, when it came time to study, FOAF was feeling sleepy and had to take a nap and snort some No-Doz afterwards.
Lesson: BZP-HCl seems to go better with orange juice.

Experience VI:
The Bad Trip
This one is after FOAF crystallized the second half of the BZP freebase. FOAF repeated the orange juice method of delivery with the residue in the glass vessel. FOAF also took a piracetam and a hydergine-- nootropic supplements that FOAF tries to remember to take every day. All was going fine at first, just like the previous times. However, FOAF came to notice that they had not only been sitting in front of a computer for five hours, but were also shaking almost uncontrollably, clenching their jaw, had totally tensed muscles, and a racing pulse while sitting perfectly still. When FOAF got up, their body felt light and when moving at normal speed felt like they could go a LOT faster. FOAF was not stupid enough to try doing so. Slowly and carefully, FOAF walked over to the networked computer and started looking for overdose information for BZP, which of course is not out there because not too many people use BZP. So instead, FOAF did some Hive/Erowid/Lycaeum/MedLine searches for information related to first aid of amphetamine overdoses. This mostly seemed to involve activated charcoal, plenty of water, and stomach pumps. Yeah, real useful if it's been five hours, and all of the shit is already in your bloodstream! FOAF grinned at the ironic thought of themselves dying of a hear attack with a computer keyboard clutched in their hands, life-saving information just a few mouse-clicks away. FOAF also repeatedly found the advice to 'contact a poison control center'. Well, DUH, motherfuckers-- FOAF doesn't need to be told that. Contact a poison control center, sit another five hours in an emergency room, tell a bunch of MD's that you were engaging in amateur pharmacology experiments (they hate competition), have the MD's tell FOAF to have lots of water and lie still for a while, then have them maybe narc on FOAF and definitely serve them with a huge medical bill. FOAF ain't seeking medical help unless a) FOAF is feeling a lot worse, or b) FOAF has reason to trust the medical help to mind their business and keep their mouth shut. While FOAF was looking, FOAF sucked down a sub-lingual melatonin. It didn't help much, but FOAF resisted the temptation to have more. FOAF tried some searches for IV amphetamine OD's and found even less stuff... kinda tells you something, doesn't it? FOAF gave up on the lame for-public-consumption medical platitudes, and decided to just stay fed (normally this calms FOAF down or outright puts them to sleep), have more melatonin, and take it easy for a while. By 6am the next morning, FOAF had calmed down enough to be able to sleep, but just before falling asleep, and after waking up, FOAF's pulse was still at 'marathon runner's' rate, just slightly reduced from when they first took the BZP. In the course of that day, FOAF was back to a functional level, still speedy. By evening, FOAF was starting to come down. The next day, FOAF was still somewhat speedy, but not enough to properly do all the classwork and work-work that had piled up by then, and FOAF looked like a real moron in front of people FOAF needed to look good in front of. FOAF was cheered by the one piece of useful information their searches had turned up-- that the prognosis is usually good for OD-ers who make it through the first 24 hours. Later, FOAF found some leads on non-public databases that may turn up the names of drugs the pro's use to get speed out of the bloodstream or counteract its effects. When FOAF has time, they will research this, but don't get too excited-- the meds are probably hard to obtain and the equipment is probably a dialysis machine which isn't exactly cheap. FOAF has concluded that the best antidote to OD-ing on certain things is prevention.
Lesson: Read up more on psychopharmacology! Duh!
Another Lesson: Get a scale to weigh the shit. Sometimes you've got more than it looks. Maybe wash out the bottles with acetone and let it evaporate instead of doing the orange juice thing.
Yet Another Lesson: Piracetam and/or hydergine may have a synergistic effect with BZP.


Conclusion:
If you like stimulants, you'll like BZP, but be careful to think things through, and do it in moderation. FOAF is sure that they'll continue doing it, but will be much more cautious from now on. FOAF doesn't mind what amounts to temporary, chemically-induced OCD and nervous tics, because BZP-HCl does have the potential to keep FOAF productive through some stressful times in FOAF's life. If what you're looking for is a psychedelic or mellow experience, this isn't for you. Good luck!


Technology. Liberty. Being all hyper in the snow.
 
 
 
 
    fearNloathing
(Newbee)
01-23-01 20:01
No 168962
      Re: 1-Benzylpiperazine.HCl from freebase? -ReFlux  Bookmark   

Oh, another technical note on BZP, and probably other stuff. An even better way to pack capsules might be to scoop the BZP-HCl into them while it is still a moist, crystalline mass, then letting the capsules lie around for a while so the acetone/methanol have a chance to completely evaporate. When drying the capsules in this manner, FOAF leaves the 'big half' off until they're done, to facilitate evaporation. When time permits, FOAF will weigh the capsules from the two batches and report back the results.


Technology. Liberty. Being all hyper in the snow.
 
 
 
 
    fearNloathing
(Newbee)
01-25-01 07:37
No 169232
      Re: 1-Benzylpiperazine.HCl from freebase? -ReFlux  Bookmark   

Haven't weighed the capsules yet, but packing them moist is a bad idea. It deteriorates the gel caps, making them brittle. Next will try packing the caps by pressing them into the chunks of crystal instead of crumbling the crystal. Stay tuned.


Every one of us is a newbee at something.
 
 
 
 
    foxy2
(Hive Addict)
01-25-01 20:09
No 169336
      Re: 1-Benzylpiperazine.HCl from freebase? -ReFlux  Bookmark   

This is a good informative post, BZP sounds interesting.
All the talk about speeding for days would make me very cautious.  If it has harmful effects on the brain and it lasts for days those can combine to magnify the problem.

I prefer shorter live drugs personally, 5-6 hours is enough for me. laugh


Do Your Part To Win The War
 
 
 
 
    fearNloathing
(Newbee)
01-27-01 01:22
No 169610
      Re: 1-Benzylpiperazine.HCl from freebase? -ReFlux  Bookmark   

Might just be that FOAF's body isn't very efficient at turning over BZP-- most of FOAF's friends who tried it report far milder experiences. Also, FOAF takes nootropics at the same time (haven't dared try it with deprenyl yet, though). YMMV


Every one of us is a newbee at something.
 
 
 
 
    BunnyJizz
(Stranger / Eraser)
01-27-01 03:45
No 169635
      Re: 1-Benzylpiperazine.HCl from freebase? -ReFlux  Bookmark   

I still have a bag of the carbonate salt of BZP lying around cuz I can't stand the comedown off of the stuff. If I want to eat or drink, I literally have to pry my jaw open with my hands :)
 
Dosage is almost a full gram with the CO2 salt, with meth like effects, though not as intense.  If you have the freebase, why bother with the HCl salt... just spread it out in a glass pan or something and let it react with the air.  Idiotproof.

 
 
 
 
    fearNloathing
(Newbee)
01-28-01 03:26
No 169794
      Re: 1-Benzylpiperazine.HCl from freebase? -ReFlux  Bookmark   

BunnyJizz wrote:
<quote>
If I want to eat or drink, I literally have to pry my jaw open with my hands </quote>

I know what you mean! Except, for some reason I never really want to eat or drink when I'm on that stuff. Physical issues become somehow less interesting than, say, configuring my computer just perfect.


Every one of us is a newbee at something.
 
 
 
 
    crash_master
(Stranger / Eraser)
02-10-01 20:41
No 172675
      Re: 1-Benzylpiperazine.HCl from freebase? -ReFlux  Bookmark   

Fearnloathing is bang on!

That is exactly how I felt.
Computers are far too addictive on BZP beware.
Also I found I couldn't eat cos my mouth was too dry.

You can sleep on it if you force yourself but you wake up speedy the next morning with clenched jaw.

Lasts 6-8hrs for me and a friend.