paranoid (Stranger)
04-16-01 10:39
No 184449
      Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

I have (i know, yet another) question regarding the extraction of LSA from hawaiian baby woodrose seeds (hbwr). I'm curious if anyone has any info regarding the use of toluene as a non-polar solvent to initially remove the alcohol soluble lipids that result in the less than pleasant effects associated with HBWR consumption.  I thought potentially someone could use toluene if they could not find pure dichloromethane (which would be preferable... sigh).  Would using toluene unwittingly extract the LSA or leave unwanted residues?  I believe toluene is supposed to evaporate fairly cleanly but having never used it in and out of a lab i'm not certain.
Furthermore, I felt that if someone were to then try to extract the LSA, would pure methanol be much more effective then aqueous ethanol (i.e. booze, 75%).  I've read that enzymes extracted with the LSA may cause the degradation of the LSA in aqueous alcohol solutions, and therefore thought perhaps it is best to extract the alkaloids with an anhydrous alcohol, evaporate it, redissolve the leftovers in booze (quickly) and put the result in the freezer.  This way, there is no enzyme action going on during the 3 or 4 day extraction nor in the final product at -25C.
Please kill my curiosity!

Thanks in advance.
 
 
 
 
    terbium
(Hive Addict)
04-17-01 07:44
No 184632
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

I have used petroleum ether to extract the junk. Where did you get the idea that you should use DCM? Then methanol to extract the LSAs
 
 
 
 
    paranoid
(Stranger)
04-17-01 09:09
No 184652
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

Well, i've read from a few sources on the web that finding clean evaporating pet. ether can be a little difficult (some fractions tend to be stubborn and persist in the seed powder), and i have used dcm in o-chem and found it to be a good non-polar solvent to work with (clean, minimal miscibility with water, evaporates at ~39C).  Accordingly I thought perhaps it would be an ideal solvent for use as a non-polar solvent in extracting the undesirables from the seed mush (hypothetically of course).  Since pure dcm may be hard to find OTC, I thought toluene might be a reasonable substitute (I could be off on this).  As well, i read an article (erowids probably) where it was mentioned that methanol tends to be fairly competent at penetrating cell wall of the seeds, perhaps more so then wet etoh.  Suggestions?
 
 
 
 
    Lilienthal
(Moderator)
04-17-01 23:35
No 184784
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

For defatting (cyclo-)hexane is used as one of the least polar solvents. DCM and toluene are more polar and may dissolve also the alkaloids (as organic salts). Because you don't plan to alkalize the biomass the alkaloids have to be extracted with a very polar solvent. Water / ethanol should be more polar than pure methanol, but both should work. I would not expect degrading enzymes to be active during water / ethanol extraction if you work fast (e.g. extracting a very fine powder three times for 30 min with agitation). Don't expect a defined (or a crystalline) substance at the end! That needs very much experience, much time, and more sophisticated methods.
 
 
 
 
    paranoid
(Stranger)
04-18-01 00:51
No 184803
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

Thanks, i appreciate the info.  Now i'm a little worried about what would be an appropriate and easy to obtain OTC non-polar solvent for this... maybe i'll work at finding some clean evaporating pet. ether.  As for my product... well i suspect it won't be much more then a brittle brown film if i dry it.  I need to get myself a rudimentry lab set.. plus a chromatography column and copious amounts of solvents!  Maybe someday... frown
 
 
 
 
    foxy2
(Hive Addict)
04-18-01 11:24
No 184912
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

DCM is otc, look in acquisition.  Butane is an alternative, it will evaporate easily so chilling may be required.

Try extracting the powder with butane/dcm to get out crap then an alcohol extraction for goodies.


Do Your Part To Win The War
 
 
 
 
    paranoid
(Stranger)
04-19-01 21:16
No 185315
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

I had considered butane but frankly i'm always concerned about using a substance that evaporates at such a low temperature.  I've read the accounts floating around where people extract THC with butane, but unless i was doing it in a ventilated walk in freezer i'd feel a little apprehensive about it.  DCM i'd prefer but cannot seem to find any at the hardware stores (only mixed with methanol and i don't have a distillation setup).  I searched for earlier posts about obtaining it and got a few ideas but haven't seen the stuff yet.
 
 
 
 
    foxy2
(Hive Addict)
04-19-01 23:58
No 185334
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

Look at other places for DCM.
There are more places than the hardware store to get supplies.
Plastic suppliers(PVC and arcrylic stuff)
And still others, I have seen it.

You could use the canned duster, it it tetrafluoro ethylene. Close to butane in boiling point though.


Do Your Part To Win The War
 
 
 
 
    paranoid
(Stranger)
04-20-01 03:22
No 185360
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   


Thank-you, i appreciate the info. smile
 
 
 
 
    superhybrid
(Hive Bee)
04-21-01 06:51
No 185629
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

Brake cleaner is a halogenated ethane. Pure also. I have also come across pure trichloro ethylene which is simply a tri sub haloethane at the hardware store.
 
 
 
 
    paranoid
(Stranger)
04-29-01 19:02
No 187897
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

Excellent, I know where I can find that.  Thank you.
 
 
 
 
    Buster_Hymen
(Hive Bee)
05-03-01 21:53
No 188951
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

On-line pyrotechnic supply stores --> DCM, Toluene, Tetrahydrofuran, Xylene, Methanol, Denatured Alcohol.

Signatures are for weenies. I don't believe in them.
 
 
 
 
    PolytheneSam
(Master Searcher)
07-11-01 03:13
No 189930
      Re: Toluene as a solvent?  Bookmark   

See US patent 3920663 on Ipomea extraction.


http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html