bizarium (Stranger than Some)
07-18-01 10:22
No 191408
      crystal memory  Bookmark   

anybees familiar with rupert sheldrake and morphic resonance theory?

rupert is in the fine tradition of highly acclaimed science geek gone weird

anyway, 'mongst other things, his theory suggests that novel crystals..one's that have not existed before...have to LEARN  to crystalize.

after that event, according to the theory, subsequent crystalizations of said substance are easier to coax...

because of the memory of the event that is stored in the morphic field, and its gravity on a situation.

the somewhat scientifically verifiable aspect of sheldrake's theory is this:

lab rats in los angeles are put thru a rigourous test; a puzzle they must solve

when they solve it, shortly thereafter, lab rats in tokyo are also able to solve it...and without the practice; and without communication with their rat brethren accross the sea. as if ratness in general had picked up the new trick.

having never pulled in a brand new molecule, to the best of my knowledge, i wonder about those who have; and if they have noticed that said novel crystal becomes easier to coax into existance after doing it a few times, even though the chemistry is in no way better.
 
 
 
 
    Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
07-18-01 16:49
No 191478
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

Interestingly, there is evidence of pandemics of crystalin forms that contaminate whole laboratories and prevent the preparation of other polymorphs.

Take a look at Jack Dunitz and Joel Bernstein, Disappearing Polymorphs, Acc.Chem.Res. 1995, 28, 193-200.

I cannot avoid making this large quote:

1,2,3,4-Tetra-O-acetyl-beta-D-ribofuranose: The early history of this compound reads like a mistery history. As first prepared in 1946 in Cambridge, England, by Howard, Lythgoe, and Todd, the compound had melting point 58C.

Virtually the same melting point was measured for material prepared by a different method in Jena by Bredereck and Hoepfner. When several batches of the same material were prepared soon afterward (1949) in a different laboratory on the other side of the Atlantic, in New York, by Davill, Brown, and Visser, the first three preparations had melting points 56-58C, but the fourth run yielded material with a distinctly higher melting point, 85C. Around the same time in Jena, by direct acetylation of ribose, Zinner obtained a mixture of two tetraacetyl derivatives, one the ribopyranose and the other the ribofuranose, with a melting point of 82C for the latter. The two high-melting point compounds appeared to be identical, although the nature of the structurel difference between them and the low-melting form was unknown. So far, so good; innumerable examples of polyphormism are known. The low-melting form can be called A, the high-melting one B.

After some time, however, the melting points of the early New York preparations had risen to 85C, and it was not longer possible to prepare the A form. A sample of A was sent from Cambridge, but when it was exposed to the air in New York, in a laboratory that contained samples of B, the crystals of A rapidly became opaque and transformed to B. In the meantime, transformation of A to B was also found to have taken place in Cambridge. Since the A form could no longer be obtained in the New York laboratory, further experiments involving this form were moved to distant Los Angeles, where it was shown that when 1 g of A (melting point 57C) was inoculated with  1 mg of B (melting point 85C), the melting point of the sample was raised to 75-77C within 2 h and to 77-79C overnight. Similar phenomena were observed in Manchester. Low-melting point A was first obtained, but when B was introduced in the laboratory, the whole of the material had the higher melting point and the low-melting form could no longer be prepared.

The saga continued in several laboratories and eventually it was not possible to prepare the A form, till 1981 when the rare A form was prepared again in a laboratory in Budapest.

At that time Budapest was behind the iron curtain, and it undoubtly prevented the contamination with the B form.


The Hive - Clandestine Chemists Without Borders
 
 
 
 
    jim
(Hive Bee)
07-18-01 21:41
No 191552
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

If the phemonemon you speak of is true, then science is bullshit. 

I don't contend that the article isn't being trueful, or isn't scientific, but there are many factors at steak (smile). 

THe A form is usually only made at a new laboratory, but after the A form is made only B form can be made.  This signals to me that there is risdual (sp?) contamination of the compound that causes the compound to crystalize at a higher temperature.

The paranormal is phenomenon that people don't fully understand yet, but that don't defy what is already understood.
 
 
 
 
    terbium
(Hive Addict)
07-18-01 23:10
No 191574
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   


If the phemonemon you speak of is true, then science is bullshit. 

I don't contend that the article isn't being trueful, or isn't scientific, but there are many factors at steak (smile). 

THe A form is usually only made at a new laboratory, but after the A form is made only B form can be made.  This signals to me that there is risdual (sp?) contamination of the compound


The article that Rhodium quoted from did not seem to be ascribing this to any paranormal phenomenom but to contamination by the higher melting form as you suggest. The interesting point of the article is that in the total absence of the B form the lower melting A form would crystallize but even miniscule amounts of the B form would prevent the A form from crystallizing.

This (non-paranormal) subject is very apropos given the recent epidemic of Mad Cow/Cruetzfeld-Jakob disease where the causitive agent is suspected to be a proteinn that has folded into an abnormal form and that catalyzes the transformation of this protein into the abnormal folding.

Who wrote the story "Ice-9"? (Kurt Vonegut?) I have never read it but have heard that it has a similar theme.

 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Ubiquitous Precursor Medal Winner)
07-19-01 02:32
No 191630
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

It's so hard to stay on topic, when something so fascinating as mad-cow disease has been mentioned. Crystals aren't life. Yet they reproduce. They reproduce their pattern, with its chirality.

We are agreed, that archaea and bacteria are alive. A virus has some of the same components, which make up living things. It does reproduce. We are forced to admit a virus must be considered at least marginally alive. But then prions are the punch line, in the cosmic joke on our presumptuousness. Prions are proteins, with a contagious folding form. Almost no one would bee willing to allow that a prion is alive. Yet they reproduce. They cause mad-cow disease, CJD, and an obscure disease endemic to the South Seas, kwashiorkor.

The epidemiology of kwashiorkor was established in the mid-twentieth century. It is caused by eating human brains, specifically the brains of cannibals. That serves as a lesson to all of us. Don't eat cannibals.


turning science fact into <<science fiction>>
 
 
 
 
    Quicksilver
(Newbee)
07-19-01 05:08
No 191666
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   


Almost no one would bee willing to allow that a prion is alive. Yet they reproduce.


Now do they reproduce, or do they just cause normal bystander prions to misfold?  I guess what I'm asking is if you put 2 prions in a dark room with nothing else there, would you find >2 prions when you checked back later?
(like you would if you put 2 rabbits in the room)

I tend to think of prions as more like nuns.  They don't reproduce, but they do propogate by converting other women to their ideals.
 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
07-19-01 13:25
No 191747
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

Which makes them some sort of parasite.
Good analogy! Have to remember this one laugh
 
 
 
 
    Quicksilver
(Newbee)
07-20-01 07:28
No 192037
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

Poster: Osmium
Subject: Re: crystal memory
Which makes them some sort of parasite.


Them as in 'nuns', or 'prions'?  Did somebody go to parochial school?wink

(begin stream of conscience: Is parochial the correct word?  Meaning catholic school? The  MS Word97 thesarus converts 'parochial' to 'narrow-minded'.  Is Bill Gates fuckin with me?)

 



 
 
 
 
    bizarium
(Stranger than Some)
07-20-01 11:02
No 192079
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

defining life can be a can of worms

what is not alive?

possible that sub atomic particals are imbued with awareness...at least hard to prove otherwise

does the definition  of being alive require that the alive one reproduce?
if so, i bet some of us are in trouble

there is nothing but life;
nothing but awareness so far in my investigation

could bee wrong, but its all double blind and highly juried


in some sense, water is analogous to prions

if we were a race that had no history of solid water, and then it happened..ice...
it could surely bee interpreted as a disease; this crystalization that causes frozenness; this spreading ice that causes suffering

and yet, there is no malicious intent in the water molecules

they simply change structure at certain temps and pressures

i wonder of our handle on prions is weighted with anthropomorphic prejudice?
is there an agenda in being a prion?
for that matter, is steel wool itching to rust, or is it oxygen that is the pesky one?

and does our opinion affect oxidation?
i'd bee guessing yes; but double blind ain't nearly blind enough
 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Ubiquitous Precursor Medal Winner)
07-20-01 12:32
No 192096
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

That's it Biz. That's just the concept I was trying to think of.
"is there an agenda in being a prion?"
DNA is meaningful; can a message have a mission?
The sequence of a particular nucleic acid strand is an information pattern.
It is a software structure, so it can be stored as data in a different medium. Only when restored into its original chemical form, can it be considered an element of life; but its digital pattern contained a potential for life.


turning science fact into <<science fiction>>
 
 
 
 
    Quicksilver
(Newbee)
07-21-01 05:29
No 192319
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

The sequence of a particular nucleic acid strand is an information pattern.

Maybe 'reproduction' can be defined as the passage of 'information' from one organism to the offspring.  That information can be in the form of genetic code, protein shape, or religious belief.  That would satisfy the examples of human reproduction, prions, AND parasitic nuns. 

We tend to think of reproduction in terms of mass/matter multiplying.  Maybe we should think in terms of information/energy growing.

Wait a sec, this isn't the couch.shocked  I'll shut up now.

-quicksilver-
 
 
 
 
    carbon
(Stranger)
07-25-01 10:32
No 198794
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but I figure biz is inolved (always love your posts, reminds of me of reading stuff I write down when im off in disassociation dream land.) 

Considering that science is in essence a human creation, and so far as ive seen doesnt occur on its own in natural conditions, I have trouble NOT calling it bullshit.  Having said that, Im definately a big fan of bullshit, seeing how it can be used for so many things.  Our understanding of the way things work is very very limited, because were working in an incredibly narrow focus, being that we live in a certain set of parameters, in a universe that has infinite possibilities.  Assuming that just because something works for us right now, right here, doesnt mean that it means we have a hold of something absolute.

As for the morphogenic fields/morphic resonances concept, when applied across the whole spectrum of natural occurences it becomes so mind-numbing to try to conceptualize that it most times leaves me with a headache.  For instance, did planets end up being spherical just because its the shape best for a large gravitational mass....  but then why is it that all planets we have knowledge of are more or less spherical.  How is it that we all know a mountain when we see it, be it from pictures from Mars or the Alps.  Are all mountain across the universe the same? 

I kind of take the whole mess and package it up with evolution, in the sense that matter will take the form best suited to its physical setting, tolerances and properties. 

Just one last random thing that blows my mind.  Morphogenic fields, applied to human thought.  Did we as a species all learn how to learn the way we do?  We all learn different things, as individuals, but our mental faculties at birth are so charged with the raw ability to learn quickly and efficiently.  Language for instance, not instinctual or needed, but just from being around it as a baby, we just seem to pick it up without being specifically taught anything.  We learn grammar, pronunciation and conotation without ever being taught in any structured form.  I wonder what would happen if a child was raised in a civilised setting without ever coming into contact with any sort of communication at all, even non-verbal.  Im betting the child would develop its own...

Random thoughts are over, continue on with your happy lives.

The molecular weight of C is 12.011 g/mol
 
 
 
 
    Quicksilver
(Newbee)
07-27-01 05:31
No 199195
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

but I figure biz is inolved (always love your posts, reminds of me of reading stuff I write down when im off in disassociation dream land.)
Glad to hear I'm not the only one who does that!laugh  Now I suddenly feel the urge to re-read every opst by biz'.

 
 
 
 
    bizarium
(Stranger than Some)
07-27-01 06:29
No 199202
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

carbon; sounds like you might know chomsky's work...(noam)

indeed there is evidence of language learning being other than rote processing.
or, rather, there is no logical explanation for the way kid's learn language.
its too fast

chunks of it are hard wired?
depending on your history

yeah; what the hell is science, anyway?

sorta like the u.s. constitution...
not a bad approach; but endlessly corruptible.

yeah; for enough money, i'll help prove what you want to happen
or worse yet...i'll force a unified field with my math because i wasn't breast fed, and i want some sort of underlying security in my reality.

the stinky part for science geeks is the fairly irrefutable aspect of reality responding to and being affected by our desires and expectations.
if i think its gonna rain because my toe hurts, and i open an umbrella because of it, the weather is effected.
and even butterfly effected

which is why i'm always mind boggled by scientists who claim to know where to draw the lines.
how can science be compatible with beliefs?
including the belief that paranormal is a non

instead of maintaining an impassionate distance from the desire for certain results from observations.

well, can't seem to get on the hive of late; hope this isn't too couchy for novel; loved what you guys wrote.
biz in odd position of being nearly satanicly scientific with spiritual friends; and nearly fundamentalist with newtonian science nerds.
hope all can admit

its much stranger than we can imagine
 
 
 
 
    bizarium
(Stranger than Some)
07-27-01 06:58
No 199207
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

quicksilver,
funny about reproduction
as approached from a chemical perceptual bias as compared to a biological bias

biologists seldom think that way; and most cannot even begin to answer simple questions like:
what species on earth weighs the most?
rate the phylums in the order of the most to least amount of carbon tied up.


as a whole, shouldn't a species sum bio-mass increase for it to be considered re-productive?

gotta admit to beeing a fan of the possibility that human perrceptual possibilities are far greater and far more fun than what "hard" science types desire. maybe that's spiritual.
as for morphic fields; should scientists consider this:
would the universe be more fun if i expanded (or relaxed) my belief system?

and how come math problems, throughout history, have been solved by very many people at about the same time, in many parts of the world?

oops...sounds like someone wants to prove something; back to my drawing board
 
 
 
 
    Agent_Smith
(Hive Bee)
08-02-01 01:41
No 200652
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

While the crystal morphology thing can be explained by contamination, how do you explain bizarium's initial exmaple of rats learning across continents?  Is that even true, seems incredible, do you have ref.s biz?

If the "rat connection" is true then development of human language seems like some parallel process.

blah blah blah something clever blah blah blah
 
 
 
 
    bizarium
(Stranger than Some)
08-03-01 16:07
No 201015
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

hmm; been lost in cyber-space.

refs? not exactly... though Sheldrake's morphic resonance book had them. (about the laab rats)
Sheldrake has a full chair at Cambridge University...he's controversial for sure, but also a real scientist.

agent smith; yeah, seems like the same phenomenae at work.
and quite similar (or analogous) to advances in math.
anybee studying the history of math must bee familiar with the way the breakthrus happen all over the world, at about the same time, with multible humans squabbling for the credit.
and this was the case long before the telephone, or even the pony express.

our inter-connectedness shouldn't come as an offensive piece of psuedo-science.
its more like an emerging fact that we have a poor handle on.

oops...just got hit with a nuetrino
 
 
 
 
    humidbeing
(Hive Addict)
08-07-01 07:36
No 202056
      Re: crystal memory  Bookmark   

Occam's razor, Which side of the blade you on?

There's nothing like a man in the depths of a filter binge.