PrimoPyro (Hive Prodigy)
01-26-02 12:05
No 261072
      Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

Hello. cool

I got an idea that uses phenylalanine, and now wish to have more knowledge regarding its purchase. I have UTFSE of course and didn't find anything, which is wonderful, as I was searching for text regarding claims of it being suspicious or watched.

Would it be suspicious if someone purchased a kilogram or two of pure phenylalanine powder or flakes, for non-consumption purposes of course, inside the United States? No pills. Pure media. No adulterants. You get the idea.

Also, I have noticed while searching on google, that most citations are for either l-phenylalanine or DL-phenylalanine. I know these are the optical isomers. I assume DL-phenylalanine is a racemic mix? I see one can buy pure L, but I haven't searched in depth yet. Can you also buy pure D-phenylalanine? Is it suspicious?

I assume for a hypothetical reduction of phenylalanine to amphetamine, the isomers of the amino acid you start with are the isomers you end up with when amphetamine is produced, correct? I know there are synths on Rhodium's page, specifically the reduction using BOC and all that other stuff tongue and that is enantioprotective.

This is NOT a reduction to amphetamine by the way. It's different. But the isomer thing is the same. So to get D-amphetamine you need D-phenylalanine? Fuck me, that sucks.

So like I asked, would buying a kilo or two of pure d-phenylalanine be suspicious? What about a smaller amount?

Thanks for your help, and I welcome any answers and/or flames for being so jumpy, right now I couldn't care less, as long as I get my answer. Well Im off to search more. Thanks! smile

EDIT: Ok, now Im slightly confused. The document on Rhodium's page ../rhodium/chemistry /amphetamine.phenylalanine.html claims in it's title, reduction of L-phenylalanine to dextroamphetamine, but in the first paragraph, it states the use of d-phenylalanine.

??? Which is correct/where is the error? With the page, or with my understanding of it?

                                                   PrimoPyro

Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!
 
 
 
 
    aragorn
(Stranger)
01-26-02 13:10
No 261079
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

hi pyro,

itīs definitely no problem to buy large quantities of phenylalanine SWIM has some good connections to supplement suppliers and bought pure phenylalanine a few months ago as supplement).
D-phenylalanine is probably a bigger problem cause itīs not used by the most supplement companys. Where SWIM live itīs only available in DLPA pain killers.

aragorn
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
01-26-02 19:20
No 261147
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

Ok, I found the answer to my isomer question. As I thought, and as seems logical to me, the isomers correspond directly: D-phenylalanine to D-amphetamine, and L-phenylalanine to L-amphetamine.

It is therefore more advantageous to acquire the racemic mixture DL-phenylalanine than pure L-phenylalanine, for clandestine purposes.

So, let me rephrase my question: Would the purchase of pure D-phenylalanine be suspicious of drug manufacture? Let's make it a little more down to earth: SWIPP has hypothetically contacted a chemical company in the United States, and has inquired about purchasing phenylalanine, in "any" of its optical isomers.

The chemical company theoretically states that they carry such an animal, and ask if SWIPP has a preference regarding the isomer. They currently theoretically await SWIPP's reply. Would it be risky for SWIPP to inquire of purchase of D-phenylalanine as opposed to the other isomer, or a mixture?

Can't get any more specific than that! tongue You guys said I was too vague, so I've been working on fixing that. smile

Thanks for the help guys! If this works, you will all benefit from it. cool

                                                     PrimoPyro

Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!
 
 
 
 
    halfapint
(Ubiquitous Precursor Medal Winner)
01-26-02 19:42
No 261155
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

Risky, no. Costly, yes. (l-phenylalanine is of biogenic origin, or by cost-competitive synthesis. Synthetic techniques of lowest cost will produce the racemic mix. So the d-isomer will cost most, by requiring a stereoselective synthesis.)

turning science fact into <<science fiction>>
 
 
 
 
    Elementary
(Hive Bee)
01-26-02 20:26
No 261169
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

The conversion detailed on rhodiums page uses reagents that are not exactly bee friendly.

Converting the phenylalanine to phenylacetaldehyde, phenylethanol or phenylacetic acid for use in p2p manufacture may be a better route to these old amphet's                         

One day I'll understand everything !
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
01-26-02 20:41
No 261175
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

This has nothing to do with the synthesis on Rhodium's page. I merely was using that as a chirality reference.

This synthesis is completely novel.

                                                    PrimoPyro

Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!
 
 
 
 
    Elementary
(Hive Bee)
01-26-02 20:53
No 261180
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

Well without giving us details on this secret novel idear, this discussion can only be useful on the amphetamine, etc front.

Please grace us bees on this novel thought train you are having, then we maybe able to contribute as you see fit !

One day I'll understand everything !
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
01-26-02 21:00
No 261183
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

I greatly appreciate your offers for help, and yes I know I am declining the very thing I have asked for, but I am sorry to say that at this time I do not wish to disclose this information in public.

If it works, it is surely to be one of the most revolutionary syntheses of amphetamine (and now methamphetamine also, by the way) that has ever been thought up. If however it does not function, then it will be another failed idea cast upon the pile of others like it, and it's back to the drawing board again. If it fails, I will post the idea. If it succeeds, I will post the writeup.

But I want to be the pioneer of this. I'm sorry.

My questions have almost all been answered, and I think I can calculate the rest on my own. All that really need be done is acquire the materials and test test test the idea.

Thank you all.

                                                    PrimoPyro

Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!
 
 
 
 
    PolytheneSam
(Master Searcher)
01-26-02 22:23
No 261202
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

Are you thinking about the Kolbe reaction by any chance?

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
01-26-02 22:38
No 261209
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

You bastard! laugh Erase that NOW! tongue

To say the least: Sort of. Not a general Kolbe reaction. As a matter of fact, thank you! I didn't know what this was called, I only remembered the entry from my chemical dictionary, and SWIM making ethane from acetic acid once with this method.

Yes, the idea is based on this reaction, but is not limited to it.

Because I did not want to reply, "What is the Kolbe reaction?", I searched for it and saw that it is what it is. I know know what to search for for data, and have already found some. Thank you! smile

I assume you can shoot a hole through this now? If so, be my guest. I need input.

                                                   PrimoPyro

Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
01-26-02 22:47
No 261212
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

If I can make that reaction work here, jesus do I have a methamphetamine-machine apparatus for you....wink

Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!
 
 
 
 
    PolytheneSam
(Master Searcher)
01-26-02 22:48
No 261213
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

I tried it about 17 years ago.  I ended up with a solution which had a lot of orange iron oxide floating (beause of the iron nails I was using as electrodes) around in it and it didn't have any fishy smell so I threw it away.  CHEM_GUY posted a lot of stuff about it.  We all know about it already. 

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
01-26-02 22:51
No 261215
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

How did iron oxide get into it? I don't understand. I searched for this sort of thing.

I'm talking about electrolysis of acetic acid with phenylalanine of course. I assume you are as well, but I fail to see how iron oxide gets into the mix?

Please, indulge the ignorant this once, and enlighten me about this information that has so eluded me, and deluded me into thinking it was a novel idea.

                                                 PrimoPyro

Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!
 
 
 
 
    PolytheneSam
(Master Searcher)
01-26-02 22:54
No 261217
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

The electrodes were 10 penny nails.

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
01-26-02 22:58
No 261218
      Kolbe reaction Amphetamine Revisited  Bookmark   

Well, if that was the only attempt, I think the idea deserves another trial, with graphite or platinum electrodes.

SWIPP plans to start using the simpler experiment with glycine, of which the decarboxylated dimer is: ethylenediamine. This should be easy to determine if the zwitterion undergoes the reaction successfully.

I stress however, that my idea is not so limited to just this basic 2RCOOH --> RR reaction.

I may perhaps give a detailed summary before trial of the entire scheme once I have actual numbers to present, and not just x amount and y amount etc.

                                                  PrimoPyro

Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!
 
 
 
 
    PolytheneSam
(Master Searcher)
01-26-02 23:01
No 261220
      Re: Kolbe reaction Amphetamine Revisited  Bookmark   

Have you UedTFSE and read all the posts about it?

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
01-26-02 23:05
No 261224
      Re: Kolbe reaction Amphetamine Revisited  Bookmark   

I had searched the best I could, but keep in mind I had no idea what this was called. I will search again.

Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!
 
 
 
 
    PolytheneSam
(Master Searcher)
01-26-02 23:16
No 261227
      Re: Kolbe reaction Amphetamine Revisited  Bookmark   

I got a lot of hits using Kolbe as the keyword.  WizardX explains a lot about the mechanisms.  I found one post of CHEM_GUY's where he says he was the first to post something about it.  I probably knew about it before him since I tried it almost 2 decades ago.

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
 
 
 
 
    PolytheneSam
(Master Searcher)
01-26-02 23:18
No 261228
      Re: Kolbe reaction Amphetamine Revisited  Bookmark   

BTW, I found and xeroxed a good reference recently about the Kolbe reaction.  It came out of a book about carboxylic acids.

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
01-26-02 23:20
No 261230
      Re: Kolbe reaction Amphetamine Revisited  Bookmark   

Well I am about to search for it, so once again I thank you for giving me the name. Unless specifically told WHY it will not work, I am oging to continue to believe that it will in the proper conditions, and am going to investigate much much further. And also, I am very proud of myself for thinking up this idea all by my lonesome. tongue Toot goes my own horn, yes, but so what? I'm happy, I have something new to learn about. I get bored easy, and times like this are truly exciting. smile

I appreciate your help, Sam.

                                                 PrimoPyro

Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!
 
 
 
 
    PolytheneSam
(Master Searcher)
01-27-02 00:02
No 261242
      Re: Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s  Bookmark   

Here's a US patent class/subclass which includes Kolbe reactions.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=205%2F462&FIELD1=ORCL&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=pall

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html