former_chemist (Hive Bee)
07-06-02 02:58
No 329294
      Denatured Alcohol  Bookmark   

These two links describe denatured alcohol:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr20.pdf
http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr21.pdf

A sampling of special denatured alcohol formulas:

all denaturants are added to 100 gals of 95% ethanol

#1 Four gallons of methyl alcohol and either 1/8 advoirpois ounce of denatonium benzoate, N.F.,(BITREX); 1 gallon of methyl isobutyl ketone; 1 gallon of mixed isomers of nitropropane; or 1 gallon of methyl n-butyl ketone.
#3A 5 gallons of methyl alcohol
#3C five gallons of isopropyl alcohol
#23A eight gallons of acetone, U.S.P.
#23H eight gallons of acetone, U.S.P. and  1.5 gallons of isobutyl ketone.
#30 ten gallons of methyl alcohol

Formulas are restricted by use:

Solvents and thinners: 1, 23A and 30
Wood Stains: 1, 3A, 3C, 23A and 30
Solvents, special (restricted sale): 1,3A and 3C
Laquer thinners: 1 and 23A
Propietary Solvents: 1 and 3A
Rubbing Alcohol: 23H

General use of specially denatured alcohol:
Propietary solvents: 1 or 3A plus
1 part gasoline, unleaded gasoline, heptane, or rubber hydrocarbon solvent; and
3 part toluene, ethyl acetate, methyl n-butyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, tert-butyl alcohol, sec-butyl alcohol, nitropropane (mixed isomers), or ethylene glycol mono ethyl ether

Rubbing alcohol is formula 23H with water and other ingredients (one additional denaturant) and optionally perfume, medicinal ingredient, and/or coloring.

Completely denatured alcohol (CDA) follows different rules and formula including that the alcohol be 80% or greater:

#18: 2.5 gallons of either methyl isobutyl ketone, mixed isomers of nitropropane, or methyl n-butyl ketone;
.125 gallons of pyronate or a similar compound;
.5 gallons acetaldol (beta-hydrobutyraldehyde); and
1 gallon of either kerosene, deodorized kerosene, gasoline, unleaded gasoline, rubber hydrocarbon solvent, or heptane

#19: 4 gallons of either methyl isobutyl ketone, mixed isomers of nitropropane, or methyl n-butyl ketone; and
1 gallon of either kerosene, deodorized kerosene, gasoline, unleaded gasoline, rubber hydrocarbon solvent, or heptane

Formulations with more than 4% methanol must be marked with the skull and crossbones and the words "danger","poisonous","vapor harmful","May be fatal or cause blindness if swallowed", and "Cannot be made nonpoisonous"

To be sold as "denatured alcohol" solvent or thinner OTC (this is my understanding) it must be a propietary solvent, completely denatured alcohol, formula 1, formula 23A, or Formula 30.

How can you tell the difference between formulations?

CDA that hasn't been processed further is listed as "Completely Denatured Alcohol".  The "Caution - contains poisonous ingredients" usually indicates CDA. A variety of things can be mixed into this stuff and still be called "Completely Denatured Alcohol".  However adding other stuff or higher quantities changes it to "Denatured Alcohol". Some ingredients are unique to completely denatured alcohol:
pyronate, acetaldol and kerosene.

Some ingredients are unique to propietary solvents:
toluene, ethyl acetate, tert-butyl alcohol, sec-butyl alcohol, and ethylene glycol mono ethyl ether

CDA and propietary solvents contain two other ingredients not found in the straight formulas:
heptane and rubber hydrocarbon solvent.

Denatorium Benzoate indicates a formula 1 or propietary solvent derived from formula 1.

Methyl isobutyl ketone; mixed isomers of nitropropane; or methyl n-butyl ketone, indicate that the formula isn't #30 or #23A.

The methyl alcohol content provides another method of distiguishing:
Only Formula 30 and propietary solvents from formula 3A will definitely have a warning for more than 4% Methyl Alcohol. But Formula 1 and propietary solvents derived from formula 1 may still have the warning even though they don't contain 4%. Formula 23A and CDA won't have a methyl alcohol warning.

The best alcohol is formula 30 or formula 23A.  CDA or propietary solvent may be acceptable if it doesn't have kerosene, gasoline, or rubber solvent.  Not all ingredients may be listed on the can.  Every paint supply or hardware store should have MSDS on file.  Ask for one.  They are required to provide it.

---
bored people shouldn't have access to the internet tongue
 
 
 
 
    ClearLight
(Hive Bee)
07-06-02 03:23
No 329296
      Ace Hardware  Bookmark   


 Was looking at the ace hardware denatured EtOH. Warning label says, "exposure to benzene"!!!  I wondered what that "rubber solvent" was....



Infinite Radiant Light - THKRA
 
 
 
 
    Scottydog
(Hive Bee)
07-06-02 03:24
No 329297
      How can one not learn anything from the chemist?  Bookmark   

In Reply to:
___________________

Every paint supply or hardware store should have MSDS on file. Ask for one. They are required to provide it.
________________________________

Consumer rights! Instead of having the hardware store clerks asking us a hundred questions as to the legitimate uses of certain OTC solvents etc. We could theoretically be putting these people to work bringing us information as to what is being added to their products.

"Sir uh what are you using the Xylol and Acetone for?" "Don't worry about it cheif... You writing a fucking book? No... If so you can keep that chapter out. By the way go bring me the MSDS on this denatured here. Swis heard you are adding some kind of rubber solvent to your denatured... What's up with that anyway?"

Swis hears the acetone cleans up the impurities from the denatured...

Edit: From reading a recent MSDS it was obvious that there is some water content and must be dried to prevent activation of dry matrix formulations in OTC "E".

Question is how much E is lost if one doesn't?
___________
Refuse/Resist
 
 
 
 
    Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
07-06-02 04:30
No 329301
      In the case of MDP2P/MeNH 2 /NaBH 4 , the yield ...  Bookmark   

In the case of MDP2P/MeNH2/NaBH4, the yield is 80%+ if done anhydrous, and more like 60%+ if some water is allowed to stay in the reaction mixture.


Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
 
 
 
 
    raffike
(Hive Bee)
07-06-02 09:21
No 329333
      And if P2P/MeNH2/NaBH4 and water is present then ...  Bookmark   

And if P2P/MeNH2/NaBH4 and water is present then yield is very low.

A friend with speed is a friend indeed
 
 
 
 
    terbium
(Old P2P Cook)
07-06-02 10:51
No 329358
      80 - 85% yield.  Bookmark   

And if P2P/MeNH2/NaBH4 and water is present then yield is very low.
No, no, no! It is simple to get 80-85% yield of MDMA or methamphetamine using NaBH4 as the reducing agent and without using a drying agent.
 
 
 
 
    raffike
(Hive Bee)
07-06-02 11:00
No 329361
      But swim heard somewhere that water ruins ...  Bookmark   

But swim heard somewhere that water ruins p2p--> meth reaction and one must use something that isolates water that forms during reaction.Silicagel or something.
../rhodium/chemistry /meth-nabh4.html

A friend with speed is a friend indeed
 
 
 
 
    terbium
(Old P2P Cook)
07-06-02 11:07
No 329364
      Incorrect.  Bookmark   

But swim heard somewhere that water ruins p2p--> meth reaction and one must use something that isolates water that forms during reaction.Silicagel or something.
That is not correct. Again, it is easy to get an 80-85% yeild of MDMA or methamphetamine using NaBH4 as the reducing agent and without using silica gel or any other drying agent. I had a long exchange with LabTop about this over the past couple of years and I believe that he finally conceded this point.
 
 
 
 
    raffike
(Hive Bee)
07-06-02 11:18
No 329367
      Anyway this makes synth with NaBH4 more easier.  Bookmark   

Anyway this makes synth with NaBH4 more easier.And little correction should be made in LabTop's writeup.

A friend with speed is a friend indeed
 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
07-06-02 13:53
No 329394
      All you moonshiners should invest in a decent ...  Bookmark   

All you moonshiners should invest in a decent column instead and convert that denatured alcohol back into pristine booze. When you are busted you will serve much less prison time, and when done on a bigger scale this could be quite rewarding.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
 
 
 
 
    goiterjoe
(Title on BackOrder)
07-06-02 14:04
No 329398
      how cheap is that?  Bookmark   

I think it would be a lot easier to distill alcohol from fermented grain and not have to worry about methanol contamination.  Plus, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy yeast, grain, and sugar than it would be to buy denatured alcohol.  Just my take on things.  I have known people to run a still that way in VA.  One of them served 3 years of a 10 year sentence.  He never made shit for money off of it either, not that he is the best financial manager anyway...tongue

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere
 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
07-06-02 15:38
No 329424
      > I think it would be a lot easier to distill ...  Bookmark   

> I think it would be a lot easier to distill alcohol from
> fermented grain and not have to worry about methanol
> contamination. 

Do you understand the principle of distillation and what columns do?

> Plus, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy yeast,
> grain, and sugar than it would be to buy denatured alcohol.

1 liter of denatured alcohol costs about $/€1.50 resale, and even less when you buy bulk. If you can make booze cheaper than that with yeast, sugar, lots of time and a big ass still then fine, prove me wrong.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
 
 
 
 
    goiterjoe
(Title on BackOrder)
07-06-02 18:40
No 329456
      azeotropes  Bookmark   

It was my understanding that methanol forms an azeotrope with ethanol and will not distill out first if that happens to be the adulterant.

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere
 
 
 
 
    Chromic
(Hive Addict)
07-06-02 19:57
No 329483
      No meoh/etoh azeotrope  Bookmark   

There is no meoh/etoh azeotrope.

I would hesitate to drink etoh distilled from denatured alcohol, but I'm sure it's safe if you've successfully analyzed the distillate for any contamination. (who has a GC to do this though?)
 
 
 
 
    former_chemist
(Hive Bee)
07-06-02 22:40
No 329525
      Replies to a bunch of stuff  Bookmark   

What to do if they want to know why you want it: Act indignant but have a good excuse, and yes ask for the MSDS your excuse involves a work place.  And don't hesitate to tell the manager you think their employee is a nosy SOB and entirely unhelpful.  My experience is that if you buy a group of related items (most of which you really have no use for) no one questions you.  Whatever you do don't go shopping while tweaking.

Benzene: Benzene is most likely an ingredient in gasoline.  Although some denatured formulas contain benzene these are not supposed to be OTC unless they are grandfathered.  On a side note denatured alcohol can be almost any formulation if it is approved by special request.

Azeotropes: A listing of binary azetropes of ethanol can be found at http://www.chemeng.ed.ac.uk/~neilm/new/azeotope/EE.html.  Methanol is not listed.  Toluene, benzene, hexane and heptane are however. The list is not definitive (but is fairly complete) and does not contain trinary or higher azeotropes or hetrogenous azeotropes.  Separating compound with no azetrope by distillation may still be difficult in some cases, ie. it is hard to get drinking grade ethanol from denatured alcohol.
 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
07-07-02 13:15
No 329666
      > I would hesitate to drink etoh distilled ...  Bookmark   

> I would hesitate to drink etoh distilled from denatured
> alcohol, but I'm sure it's safe if you've successfully
> analyzed the distillate for any contamination.

You don't need to be hesitant at all.

The usual (legal or moonshine still) has a separation efficiency of perhaps 2 theoretical plates, yet the distillers are able to remove the MeOH formed during fermentation of fruits containing kernels (cherry etc).

When you rectify EtOH which is already 90 or 95% pure and the only volatile adulterant is MeOH then it really shouldn't be a problem to get it out by simply discarding the first 10-15% of the distillate when you use a column with 20 or so theoretical plates. With a normal lab sized distillation unit you can easily produce 250-500ml of pretty pure EtOH, the HETP value for a column diameter of 1 inch filled with rolled wire mesh is about 20mm @500ml/hr.
By scaling it up somewhat (50-75mm column diameter, 1m column etc) and discarding a generous forerun you should be able to distill one to two liters or more of very pure EtOH per hour. How do you guys think reagent grade solvents are made? Same principle.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
 
 
 
 
    UTFSE
(Hive Bee)
07-07-02 13:32
No 329678
      Osmium--- awrite ---- otay spanky - this sounds ...  Bookmark   

Osmium---

otay spanky - this sounds real good.

i got sitting here in front of me a couple of 5 gallons containers that state "99% anhydrous ethyl alcohol - denatured" along with a warning of methyl alcohol.

and by using the equipment/methodology you just described I would have 100% anhydrous ethanol?
would redrying with say CaCl be approipriate?
  --------------------------------------way cool, dude.

OTEECEE & meeeee!!!!
 
 
 
 
    Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
07-07-02 14:44
No 329711
      No, only CaO is suitable (irreversibly forming ...  Bookmark   

No, only CaO is suitable (irreversibly forming Ca(OH)2 with water). CaCl2 will even chlorinate some of the EtOH...
 
 
 
 
    Chromic
(Synaptic Self-Mutilator)
07-07-02 15:11
No 329722
      Hmm...  Bookmark   

I'm really hesistant about putting alcohol into my body in the first place. smile

My 28" 3/4" copper column stuffed with stainless steel wool gives an incredible separation as well (when a decent external reflux ratio is used, I'm sure it gives me over 20 plates). However it doesn't produce "scent-free" 95% ethanol. I guess that's the reason behind my hesitation... but I guess, a couple ppt MeOH isn't going to hurt anyone but a couple ppt bad-smell in ethanol can really "give it character".
 
 
 
 
    goiterjoe
(Title on BackOrder)
07-07-02 15:47
No 329732
      copper column...  Bookmark   

you using a copper radiator for a condensor as well?

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere
 
 
 
 
    wareami
(Hive Addict)
07-07-02 18:28
No 329788
      Rubber Solvent  Bookmark   

ClearLight: Most content listing's on Denat Alky just indicate "Rubber Solvent" on the container....but a further search dug up the chem name....
"Aliphatic Petroleum Distillate 64742-89-8", however this still leaves alot to the imagination and has peaked Ibee's awareness further as to why all the secretive labeling....

Here is what the Pure Denat from Ace Hardware lists:
•Ethanol CAS #64-17-5
•Methanol CAS #67-56-1
•Methyl Isobutyl Ketone CAS #108-10-1
•Ethyl Acetate CAS #141-78-6
•Rubber Solvent CAS #64742-89-8
•Water CAS #7732-18-5
Usually when listing contents, manufacturers generally list them in proportionate order...most abundant being listed first.

Several bees had PM'ed over the amount of h2o content being a concern in extraction! It is minimal and one can see that when considering that most Denatured Alcohol is suitable for alcohol lamps and will burn clean and dry!
So for this reason Ibee has never considered it a threat to the Dry Matrix Formula in OTC pfed extractions....especially when the alternatives are considered to be purer and attract more inactives.

It's just strange that they won't just come right out and list the chemical name when labeling! Instead, it's just...."Rubber Solvent"!!!
WTF????

Scottydog sent me a link a while back with some Denatured Alcohol Facts surrounding major hardware store brands...While it's outdated, it still contains some interesting info...
http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/notes/alcohol%20fuel.htm
Peaceof the reaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE


Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
ô¿ôWareami
 
 
 
 
    paranoid
(Hive Bee)
07-07-02 20:14
No 329820
      from the natural source  Bookmark   

In terms of distilling ethanol from fermented products, isn't there some concern over the collection of fusel (sp?) oils which have a similar BP to ethanol?  Perhaps it just requires very careful distillation, but I remember an old chem instructor warning me about this one time when we were discussing distillation.
 
 
 
 
    terbium
(Old P2P Cook)
07-07-02 21:30
No 329833
      Fusel oil  Bookmark   

Merck Index:

  4339.    Fusel Oil. 
    A by-product of carbohydrate fermentations to produce ethyl alc.  The material varies widely in composition, depending on the fermentation raw material used, but contains chiefly isopentyl alcohol and 2-methyl-1-butanol as well as isobutyl alcohol (20%), n-propyl alcohol (3-5%), and small amounts of other alcohols, esters and aldehydes.  Described as an oily liq with a disagreeable odor; 60% boils at 122-138 deg.  Amyl alcohol (commercial) obtained by chemical treatment and refining of fusel oil contains about 85% isopentyl alcohol and 15% 2-methyl-1-butanol.  Ref:  Industrial Chemicals, W. L. Faith et al., Eds. (John Wiley, New York, 2nd ed., 1957) pp 107-114.
          Caution:  Commercial amyl alcohol is considerably more toxic than ethyl alcohol.  See also 1-Pentanol and Isopentyl Alcohol.

 
 
 
 
    former_chemist
(Hive Bee)
07-07-02 22:30
No 329841
      Distilling Denatured  Bookmark   

Ok the ace stuff would be #1 denatured alcohol using the general use propietary formula.  That means you have 100 parts EtOH, 4 parts MeOH, 1 part MIK, Then 1 part rubber solvent and 3 parts ethyl acetate is added.  The EtOH used is probably the 95% (azetropic) meaning you have 95 parts EtOH and 5 parts water. Total mix is 109 parts.

Rubber solvent is a mixture of aliphatic hydrocarbons (naptha) containing hexane and heptane.  These form azeotropes with EtOH. Ethyl acetate also forms an azetrope, I am not 100% sure (can't find any references) but I think MIK also forms an azetrope.  That means if you distill the stuff you may not have any methanol but you will have three azetropes of NASTY stuff.
 
 
 
 
    wareami
(Hive Addict)
07-07-02 23:41
No 329856
      MIK.....  Bookmark   

Description:

Methyl isobutyl ketone (CAS# 108-10-1) is a colorless liquid that is used as a solvent for vinyl, epoxy, acrylic and natural resins, nitrocellulose, paints, varnishes, lacquers, protective coatings, rare metal extraction, and dyes. It is used as a denaturant for rubbing alcohol, a synthetic flavoring adjuvant, and a fruit flavoring. It is used in extracting uranium from fission products, dewaxing mineral oils, manufacturing antibiotics, dry-cleaning preparations, and the synthesis of methyl isobutyl carbinol. It occurs naturally in oranges, grapes, and vinegar.

Chemical properties:

Methyl isobutyl ketone has a faint ketonic and camphor odor. It is classified under the Clean Air Act as a volatile organic compound. It is moderately soluble in water, and soluble in alcohol, ether, acetone, benzene, and chloroform. It is miscible with most organic solvents. It is reactive or incompatible with strong oxidizers, potassium, and tert-butoxide. It is highly flammable and will be easily ignited by heat, sparks, or flame. Its vapors may form explosive mixtures with air and may travel to the source of ignition and flash back. The vapor may explode if ignited in an enclosed area. Most of its vapors are heavier than air, and its liquids are lighter than water. Methyl isobutyl ketone ignites on contact with potassium-t-butoxide. It can react vigorously with reducing materials. Synonyms for methyl isobutyl ketone include hexone, isobutyl methyl ketone, 4-methyl-2-pentanone, and isopropyl acetone.

Identification:

Chemical Name: Metyl Isobutyl Ketone
Regulatory Name: Methyl Isobutyl Ketone
Formula: (C6H12O)
DOT Label: Flammable Liquid
CAS: 108-10-1
STCC: 4909244
CHRIS: MIK
UN Number: 1245
Health effects:

Exposure to methyl isobutyl ketone may cause gastrointestinal disturbances and central nervous system impairment, headache, nausea, vomiting, and respiratory tract irritation. Chronic exposure may cause axonal neuropathy, paresthesia, and muscle weakness. Ingestion of methyl isobutyl ketone may cause central nervous system depression, respiratory depression, dyspnea, pulmonary aspiration, and corrosive effects. Inhalation may cause coma, nausea, headache, vertigo, incoordination, central nervous system depression, narcosis, dizziness, tremors, cardiorespiratory failure, and eye, nose, and throat irritation.

Exposure Values:

IDLH: 500 pp (NIOSH, 1997)
TLV TWA: 50 ppm (©ACGIH, 1999)
TLV STEL: 75 PPM (©ACGIH, 1999)
NIOSH REL: TWA 50 ppm (240 mg/m3)
OSHA PEL: TWA 100 ppm (475 mg/m3)
Economics:

U.S. manufacturers of methyl isobutyl ketone are :Eastman Kodak Company, Longview, TX; Shell Oil Company, Deer Park, TX; and Union Carbide Corporation, Institute, WV
Peaceof the reaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE


Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
ô¿ôWareami
 
 
 
 
    ClearLight
(Hive Bee)
07-08-02 01:02
No 329869
      Os question...  Bookmark   


 So osmium, with all those nasty azeotropic type things that the ATF likes to see there, mek, ethyl acetate etc...

  can a good column get a good separation, or is it all just azeotrope city... ( I know the MeOH + EtOH can be done it's the other stuff I'm curious about )

thx


Infinite Radiant Light - THKRA
 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
07-08-02 01:35
No 329877
      Well, you have to pick a denatured EtOH which ...  Bookmark   

Well, you have to pick a denatured EtOH which contains only stuff that can be separated by distillation. I'm sure it is possible to somehow separate all of these mixtures, the question is if it is worthwhile.
PS: ethyl acetate can be dealt with by adding NaOH.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
 
 
 
 
    Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
07-08-02 10:20
No 329975
      Ethanol from Ethyl Acetate  Bookmark   

My own prefered way of obtaining pure 95% ethanol is to buy OTC technical ethyl acetate, add 1.1 equivalents of 50% NaOH very slowly (VERY exothermic) with stirring and then removing the formed ethanol by simple distillation of the mixture to obtain ~75% aqueous ethanol. Fractional distillation then easily gives you 95% ethanol. If absolute ethanol is desired, it is dried by  distilling from an excess of calcium oxide.
 
 
 
 
    former_chemist
(Hive Bee)
07-08-02 10:57
No 329990
      Azeotrope city  Bookmark   

Clearlight: these things are only approved if they CAN'T be separated easily by distillation.  The azeotropes won't separate with distillation.

Osmium: Most industrial and OTC alcohol solvent (stuff not for human cosmetics or consumption) contain that "rubber solvent" or MIK in addition to ethyl acetate (which no formula contains exclusively).  But sodium bisulfite should precipitate the MIK.  That only leaves that pesky rubber solvent.

wareami: Good info, MIK is very nasty stuff,  BP 117.4°C, still don't know if it forms an azetrope with ethanol though.

Rhodium: Thanks chief.

I usually just go buy some everclear at a liquor store.  They don't blink twice if you get a couple of gallons.  Being a known alcoholic has its advantages. Sometimes they ask if I am gonna share some, I tell 'em "No, the party is strictly BYOB and this is MINE!".  Redistilled OTC grade works fine as a solvent.
 
 
 
 
    Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
07-08-02 12:28
No 330016
      Everclear data  Bookmark   

How much do you pay for everclear in the US, and what percentage is it?

In my country I can only find clear spirits of 60% or lower.
 
 
 
 
    overclock
(Hive Bee)
07-08-02 13:13
No 330042
      MMMmmm....  Bookmark   

190 Grain in my neck of the woods. 95% Alcohol ready for consumtion. About 10-20$ a fifth.(@750/800ml) round here depending on the brand. Personally I can't really tell the difference as it's too strong to drink out of the bottle and has to be mixed.

-OC

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
 
 
 
 
    wareami
(Hive Addict)
07-08-02 13:30
No 330051
      everclear......  Bookmark   

Rhodium: UTOTHERFSE.....
Haahhaaahhaaa!!! Couldn't resist Chief!!!

Grain Alcohol is a spirit derived from the fermentation of grain. It is distilled twice.
At 190 proof or 95-percent pure alcohol, Everclear is 95% pure grain alcohol, odorless, tasteless, and very potent.
Grain alcohol is used by cooks, distillers of other alcoholic beverages, and for medicinal purposes.
It can be purchased for $19.69 750ml and cheaper in bulk quanities and can be aquired online but some distributors state they won't ship to
Pennsylvania, Washington, Oregon, or California.

Another side note is this rather humorous tale of mixing everclear and nicotine:

Anyway, I'm hanging out one day and in walks Marc Olson, Bucketeer and pre-med student at that time.

I occasionally chew tobacco, and so does Mark. I chew Redman "leaf", and Marc, being a pussy, chews (or rather sucks on) Skoal Bandits - which are known in the vernacular as "tampons" due to the fact that they're little tea bag shaped puches of snuff, for pretty boys and fags who can't handle the real thing.

So Marc mentions that he's heard that if you soak a bandit in brandy or other strong liquer that it gives you a strong nicotine buzz. The theory is that the alcohol strips the mucus lining in your mouth, and disolves the nicotine faster, and thus pumps it into your bloodstream several times faster than normal.

So, what the hell. We soak a handfull in whiskey and shove about 3 each between our cheek and gum. Guess what? It works!

So, being the creative types we are -- if a little alcohol works, imagine what a LOT of alcohol will do?! It so happens that I always try to keep a few bottles of Everclear on hand. I assume everybody knows that Everclear is 190 proof grain alcohol, the closest thing you can make to pure alcohol. By comparison, normal whiskey is 80 proof, and extra-strong stuff such as Wild Turkey is 101 proof.

So, we soak a new batch in Everclear, and pack those bad boys in.

DAMN! After a few seconds they really started to burn! For those that have never chewed, let me inform you that regular chew has a burn to it. Not horrible, but about the level of tobasco sauce. It's part of what I like about chew. But this was a REAL burn. Dang! So my eyes are watering, and I'm hopping around from one foot to the other, but I'm not going to take it out darn it.

After about 5 minutes the burn had more or less subsided, but the pain had blocked out whatever nicotine effect there may have been. So I open my mouth and pull out the tampon. And along with it comes a perfectly square patch of skin. Ugh. The alcohol and tobaco juice combination was too strong. It killed all the skin it came in contact with, which stuck to the wrapper of the bandit - and left me with these nice little 1/2" X 3/4" rectangular raw patches in my mouth, on both the inside of my cheek and my gums.

It was like having three of the largest canker sores in the history of mankind. They took about a week to heal.

So, kids. Let that be a lesson to you. Don't be a stark raving idiot.




Peaceof the reaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE


Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
ô¿ôWareami
 
 
 
 
    geezmeister
(Hive Addict)
07-08-02 15:04
No 330079
      But  Bookmark   

It would take all the fun out of mash.

An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.
 
 
 
 
    foxy2
(Distinctive Doe)
07-08-02 15:35
No 330092
      Which States?  Bookmark   

Where is the 190 proof grain spirits legal?

Indiana, Wyoming and Wisconsin sell it I think?

CA, OR, WA, PA, MN, MI, UT, NH and most of the bible belt don't sell it.  As far as i know.

Anyone know where else its legal?

Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
 
 
 
 
    goiterjoe
(Title on BackOrder)
07-08-02 15:41
No 330094
      It's in the bible belt  Bookmark   

I've seen it in NC, SC, VA, GA, and FL.  I've also heard of people getting on the other side of the mountains from us.

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere
 
 
 
 
    wareami
(Hive Addict)
07-08-02 15:44
No 330095
      Azeotropes and Fract Dist.  Bookmark   

Geez: I hear that!wink

To give bees a better understanding of fractional distillation, Ibee copied this from one of his chemistry books...

The liquid obtained by condensation of vapor in a distillation is known as the distillate.
If a mixture of volatile substances is distilled, the vapor will be richer in the more volatile component. For example, the distillate obtained from the the distillation of wine has a higher alcohol content than the wine, because alcohol is more volatile than water. Small percentages of minor components that impart flavor and aroma also are found in the distillate, which is known as brandy. However, a single simple distillation does not effect complete separation of the components of wine. If several components of a mixture have similar volatilities, repeated distillations may be necessary for complete saturation.

A fractionating column effects in a single operation what may require several simple distillations. This procedure is called fractional distillation. The column has a packing such as glass beads that provides cooling space where part of the vapor condenses as it moves upward from the distilling flask. The condensed liquid is richer in the least volatile component. As the condensed liquid trickles down the beads toward the distillation flask, it comes in contact with fresh vapor moving upward from the flask. Because the vapor is hotter than the liquid on the beads, heat interchange occurs. As a result, the more volatile part of the liquid vaporizes and the less volatile part of the vapor condenses. Thus the vapor becomes further enriched in the more volatile component. Because many such heat interchanges occur along the column, only the most volatile component or components of the mixture are finally able to reach the condenser and escape.
Fractional distillation is used to separate crude oil into fractions. Commercially this is done using equipment of very sophisticated design. The fractions referred to as gasoline, kerosene, and lubricating oil differ in volatilities. The more volatile component, gasoline, boils in the the approximate range of 60-150°C, whereas kerosene and lubricating oil boil in the 150-250°C and 250-350°C ranges respectively.




Ibee realizes that this may be common knowledge for some, but he had a hard time understanding what exactly was taking place until he started reading and learning, and the above helped him to understand more about fractional distillation!
Hope this helps some bees!

Former_MadPsyentist:laughAccording to the CRC, no azeotropes are formed by the MIK ..with ethanol in the binary system, but in the ternary system it only lists azeotropes with...ETHANOL...METHYLETHYL KETONE...and WATER...but NOT MIK.
Peaceof the reaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE



Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
ô¿ôWareami
 
 
 
 
    wareami
(Hive Addict)
07-08-02 15:57
No 330104
      Legality  Bookmark   

It is completely legal for you to produce liqueurs using the processes of infusion and blending, but illegal to involve or use the process of distillation without proper permits and licenses.
Alcohol bases used to make your liqueurs, 190° proof grain alcohol, vodka, brandy, etc., must be purchased legally. Alcohol can be transported between states, even if it is not sold or illegal in your state. Check with your state liquor board for quantity limits.
It is illegal to sell or offer your home-made liqueurs for sale. However, it is perfectly legal to produce liqueurs for you and your friends’ personal consumption. They make great gifts! Whatever you do, do not get money involved in the consumption or distribution of the liqueurs! The Feds want their taxes!?
If a name has a ™ or ® beside it, that means it is a trademark or registered trademark, respectively, and is considered proprietary information of that company. The name should not be used to label your home-made liqueurs.
If you are a creative naturalist interested in making new and unique liqueurs, here is something to think about—
For well over 100 years, Wormwood, a common herb, had been used as the major flavoring ingredient in the very popular Absinthe liqueur. Drinking Absinthe in large doses caused irreversible neurological damage due to a strong narcotic, thujone, found in Wormwood. Absinthe liqueur was finally illegalized for sale and manufacture in many countries, including the United States, on March 16, 1915. It was invented in the late 1700’s.
If you are going to experiment with wild plants or anything for that matter, make sure you know what you are dealing with. The sky is the limit, and who knows, maybe you’ll come up with the markets next-best selling liqueur.laugh
It funny how legality issues RUB across our GRAINS in any STATE we're in!smile
Ibee is still looking for a list of the GrainDry states(Illegal)!
Peaceof the reaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE




Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
ô¿ôWareami
 
 
 
 
    paranoid
(Hive Bee)
07-08-02 21:22
No 330240
      ha!  Bookmark   

When coming back from the USA into Canada once I picked up 1.14 l (40 oz) generic brand bottle of 95% alcohol for $15 (US) at the duty-free shop.  Not bad at all!
 
 
 
 
    former_chemist
(Hive Bee)
07-08-02 23:42
No 330311
      My cost  Bookmark   

Right now my cost is about $14/750ml, larger bottle is $25/1.5L.  Everclear (95% grain alcohol) is popular in Arkansas and Louisiana, in addition to some of the other states mentioned (Texas for instance).  Some localities don't even allow the sale or possession of alcohol (except during transport) in Louisiana and Texas. Different states have different laws and counties (parishes in Louisiana, same thing different name) sometimes differ.
 
 
 
 
    UKBEE
(Hive Bee)
07-09-02 03:02
No 330348
      you lucky guys  Bookmark   

your lucky you can get 190 proof ,in the UK that would just be so expensive to buy as the duty rate in levied on the % of Alcahol in the product so 190 would probably have a stupidly high tax..

not sure of the tax banding but its something like

Beer 3-7% Band A
Wine 9-12% Band B
Fortified Drinks 12-21%
Spirits 22-43%


etc

each band has a higher duty levied..

and duty paid ethanol is v expensive...




I love the smell of Ketone in the morning.
 
 
 
 
    UTFSE
(Hive Bee)
07-11-02 12:43
No 331364
      mouthwash as a starting point  Bookmark   

there's a relatively simple source for ethanol be it diluted slightly. Mouth wash (aka Lister-something or other) contains about 24% for about $1 a litre discount super cheapo.

The alcohol distills out but still smells like the mouthwash which can (probably) be dealt with with activated charcoal/filtration.

Then on to drying like was mentioned afore  (CaO).

this is closest OTC but doesn't beat Everclear, etc.

OTEECEE & meeeee!!!!
 
 
 
 
    UTFSE
(Hive Bee)
07-11-02 12:46
No 331366
      getting gobs of CaO  Bookmark   

rumor has it heating lawn lime (CaOH) drives off CO2 leaving CaO. anything troof to it?

OTEECEE & meeeee!!!!
 
 
 
 
    former_chemist
(Hive Bee)
07-11-02 21:44
No 331583
      Yes hydrated lime + heat = CaO  Bookmark   

Now the catch.  You have to heat it beyond red heat (825-1000C).  This is easy to do if you have access to a pottery kiln.
 
 
 
 
    madprosr
(Stranger)
09-05-02 16:05
No 353202
      Re: CaO  Bookmark   

what about drying your 95% EtOH with MgSO4?
is there some reason this will no work?
 
 
 
 
    lugh
(Moderator)
09-05-02 17:41
No 353248
      Solubility  Bookmark   


what about drying your 95% EtOH with MgSO4?
is there some reason this will no work?


    

Magnesium sulfate is soluble in ethanol, thus it's not a good choice for drying it. Calcium oxide is the traditional method smile Molecular sieve 3A would work smile Azeotropic distillation using benzene is the recommended route for drying, if drinking it isn't the goal, a little known method of drying ethanol is to boil out the azeotrope of dichloromethane and water; it's boiling point is 38.1° C, and is composed of 1.8% water. See Jour Soc Chem Ind 61 and Chem Ind 20 120 (1942) for more details laugh Using magnesium as described in Vogel's is another good method smile 
 
 

 
 
 
 
    VideoEditor
(Hive Bee)
09-05-02 21:50
No 353335
      Sodium Carbonate  Bookmark   

In SWIVE's dreams, he uses dried sodium carbonate where he used to use dried epsoms. Does anyone know if it is soluble in ethanol? SWIVE told me he's had good results drying ISO, methanol, acetone and VM&P naptha with it.

Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
 
 
 
 
    bee186
(Newbee)
09-05-02 22:03
No 353341
      Lugh hi, would CaO remove the H2O only or would ...  Bookmark   

Lugh hi, would CaO remove the H2O only or would it also remove the methyl alcohol denaturant?

thanks advanced
 
 
 
 
    chemdork
(Stranger)
09-08-02 21:08
No 354506
      hmm  Bookmark   

is there a decent way to turn the MeOh into a solid
compound by the addition of something else?  Then simple
distill your goodies... any ideas?
 
 
 
 
    WW4000
09-10-02 14:06
      about water in the NaBH3
(Rated as: off-topic)
 Bookmark   
 
 
 
    WW4000
09-10-02 14:09
      oh yes - too rough on the di-oxy ring, i remember
(Rated as: insignificant)
 Bookmark