Flip (Hive Bee)
09-12-02 18:30
No 355649
      Sodium borohydride from Orthoboric and NaOH  Bookmark   

4H2 + NaOH + H3BO3 <=====> NaBH4 + 4H2O

How might one effectively control this equilibrium?


Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.
 
 
 
 
    Aurelius
(Hive Bee)
09-12-02 22:46
No 355696
      borohydride  Bookmark   

reference?  procedure?
 
 
 
 
    Flip
(Hive Bee)
09-13-02 02:57
No 355748
      wish i could help you  Bookmark   

smile

No reference, no procedure, just something I thought of after studying hydrides.wink It's a balanced equation though and all the electronegativity values seem to be in order (trust me I consulted a gradeschool chemistry booktongue).

I will tell you that an easy way to produce hydrogen gas is aq.hydrochloric over zinc metal.....

Zn +   2HCl =====>  ZnCl2 +  2H2

You'll need lots of the H2wink

And that both NaOH and H3BO3 are found in powder form and readily availiable OTC from the average grocery/hardware store.

Flip

Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.
 
 
 
 
    Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
09-13-02 03:10
No 355753
      A balanced equation also says Ephedrine + MeI ...  Bookmark   

A balanced equation also says Ephedrine + MeI -> 4-MeO-Methamphetamine Hydriodide.

Will it happen? No. Just because an equation is balanced doesn't mean it's going to happen. 
 
 
 
 
    Flip
(Hive Bee)
09-13-02 03:33
No 355760
      Ha!  Bookmark   

Try it.


Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
09-13-02 04:37
No 355783
      UTFSE  Bookmark   


How might one effectively control this equilibrium?




Electrolysis. UTSE, it's been discussed before, as a patent series found my PolytheneSam and gabbed about by yours truly.

PrimoPyro


Will perform sexual favors for females in exchange for 1,2-dimethylaziridine. PM for details.
 
 
 
 
    Flip
(Hive Bee)
09-13-02 04:43
No 355785
      How can I use the search engine in the shower?  Bookmark   

Yeah it did seem a bit too obvious not to have been thought of before.  Still, I love discovering things for myself.  So if I get all excited and post something like it is revolutionary, even though it is obvious, don't worry that's just crazy ol' Flip.

Still you have to admit that this is an amazing synth.  Who needs sources when you can start from scratch?

EDIT:   It's kinda funny though.... a search using :

H3BO3
orthoboric
orthoborate
boracic
trihydroxyborane


Turned up nothing on this topic except these posts.  Where are these threads you are mentioning?

Flip

Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.
 
 
 
 
    PrimoPyro
(Hive Prodigy)
09-13-02 04:54
No 355794
      The opposite is also true. ;)  Bookmark   


Who needs sources when you can start from scratch?




Who needs to start from scratch when that's what chemical suppliers are for? tongue

It's all a matter of how you look at things, and what your objective is. i.e. Slight Mass/Mass Production, or experimental/pleasure of synthesis. Methods will vary accordingly. smile

PrimoPyro


Will perform sexual favors for females in exchange for 1,2-dimethylaziridine. PM for details.
 
 
 
 
    Flip
(Hive Bee)
09-13-02 05:07
No 355803
      Works both ways  Bookmark   

This reaction is scaleable and would be a safer, cheaper method of obtaining large quantities of this compound.

Now if you will excuse me I have to get back to my nanotongue

Flip

Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.
 
 
 
 
    Protium
(Stranger)
09-13-02 17:44
No 355999
      NaBH4  Bookmark   

The first equation is superior, it's a cheap and over the counter way of making a prized reagent from common commercial products.

Orthoboric can be obtained 100% in certain insecticides, most notably certain powdered roach and carpet flea killers.

sodium borohydride from the grocery store.wink


Pr(+)tium
 
 
 
 
    moo
(Hive Bee)
09-13-02 19:24
No 356010
      Equations schmequations  Bookmark   

Did you guys know that there is an equilibrium between two forms of elemental carbon, diamonds and graphite, that is on the side of graphite? Fortunately the reaction is so slow that nobody is going to see diamonds turn into graphite. Furthermore, diamonds can be made from graphite but it requires a lot of effort in the form of pressure and heat. Equations are equations, they are theoretical. Take a look at the actual NaBH4 production patents listed in Post 253798 (PolytheneSam: "NaBH4 patents", Chemistry Discourse) and realize that if there was such an easy way to produce NaBH4 it surely would already have been patented because of all the money involved and all the elemental sodium and autoclaves missing. Remember: If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. And regarding the electrolytical method, the half-reactions combined are not the same equation.
 
 
 
 
    Protium
(Stranger)
09-14-02 04:11
No 356138
      Re: Equations schmequations  Bookmark   

Your analogy is not applicable.

Also, you are forgetting about the principles of electronegativity and reactivities which are also determined by equations.  Everything can be defined by mathematics, really, even if that is beyond your understanding.

Anyone who does not believe that borofax can be reduced to a borohydride, is, IMHO, a moron.

This is the whole principle behind hydrogen fuel cells.  The NaBH4 is reacted with a catalyst to produce electricity and hydrogen, along with other byproducts, and can these can be recycled back into NaBH4.

"Essentially, you just need to add back the hydrogen," -Stephen Tang Millenium Cell Inc.

I know what I am talking about.  Trust me i'm an isotope of hydrogen.
Pr(+)tium
 
 
 
 
    Protium
(Stranger)
09-14-02 04:36
No 356155
      NaBH4  Bookmark   

Alternatively, NaBH4 can be produced by reacting boric acid with methanol to produce trimethylborate which is then reacted with sodium hydride at elevated temperatures.  This isn't exactly a process for the amatuer chemist, however, as the methyl borate/sodium hydride reaction is potentially very explosive.

Pr(+)tium
 
 
 
 
    terbium
(Old P2P Cook)
09-14-02 06:23
No 356180
      Watch your tongue boy!  Bookmark   

Anyone who does not believe that borofax can be reduced to a borohydride, is, IMHO, a moron.
You should be more careful about who you are calling a moron. Actually, your statement above is not incorrect. That is because you have confused things so badly as to make it meaningless.

This is the whole principle behind hydrogen fuel cells.  The NaBH4 is reacted with a catalyst to produce electricity and hydrogen, along with other byproducts, and can these can be recycled back into NaBH4.
Wrong again! You are really doing a good job of demonstrating the adage that "a little knowledge can be dangerous".

"Essentially, you just need to add back the hydrogen," -Stephen Tang Millenium Cell Inc.
Yep, that again is not incorrect, it is just that the devil is in the details.
 
 
 
 
    terbium
(Old P2P Cook)
09-14-02 06:26
No 356181
      I wonder why?  Bookmark   

Alternatively, NaBH4 can be produced by reacting boric acid with methanol to produce trimethylborate which is then reacted with sodium hydride at elevated temperatures.
Yep, that has been the process for about 60 years. I wonder why they bother with this difficult procedure when amateurs like protium know such simpler procedures?
 
 
 
 
    Protium
(Stranger)
09-14-02 07:01
No 356194
      Whoa there partner  Bookmark   

You should be more careful about who you are calling a moron.

I'm sorry ol' Terb but I did not call anyone a moron except those that believe this reaction is not empirically and chemically sound.

Actually, your statement above is not incorrect

YOU seem to agree so you do not fit into this category, and anyone who does I invite to raise their hand and bee counted.  I'll have a nice laugh.

That is because you have confused things so badly as to make it meaningless.

Respectfully:
This is what I like to call "double talk".  Actually the statement is quite clear. "Borofax" also means "Orthoboric", and a dictionary will help you with the rest.  You have also made an unclear pronoun reference with your usage of the word "things", and this hazy collection of words does not seem to relate to why my statement is not incorrect.

Wrong again! You are really doing a good job of demonstrating the adage that "a little knowledge can be dangerous".

I do not see how my making generalizations changes the fact that I am correct.

Yep, that has been the process for about 60 years. I wonder why they bother with this difficult procedure when amateurs like protium know such simpler procedures?

Yeilds, and operating costs.

the devil is in the details

Alwayswink

Pr(+)tium
 
 
 
 
    Protium
(Stranger)
09-14-02 07:18
No 356199
      Anyone?  Bookmark   

So who is going to stand up and announce that hydrides cannot be produced from hydroxides?

Maybe someone can pop in with another analogy comparing carbon structures to chemical structures?

I'm waiting.



Pr(+)tium
 
 
 
 
    Organikum
(Hive Bee)
09-14-02 15:07
No 356263
      a working procedure?  Bookmark   

a working procedure is what my heart cries for, dicksizing is for the COUCH.

NaBH4 for the masses!

I promise everyone who gives us a way to make NaBH4 in a clandestine way that I personally will feed his ego till the end of all days!

So please chefs de la cuisine, cook and write!

ORGY

~ Love is the law, love under will. ~
 
 
 
 
    Flip
(Hive Bee)
09-14-02 22:57
No 356339
      Re: MaDMaX  Bookmark   

>(from)some kidís school paper on boron

That kid should have failed the class.tongue

>Reactions can occur in either acidic or basic conditions.

That kid did not have his head on straight with the ionic potential of boron.  Compounds like Al(OH)3 are indeed amphoteric, whereas B(OH)3 is a weak acid (due to the higher electronegativity of B). B(OH)3 doesn't react with acids (the OH groups are not basic but covalently bound to the B) but can add another OH- to form B(OH)4-.


Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.
 
 
 
 
    Protium
(Stranger)
09-15-02 03:48
No 356395
      Re: a working procedure  Bookmark   

a working procedure is what my heart cries for

Well sir, it's pretty "cut and dry" until the NaBH4 comes into contact with moisture.  That's when the whole process turns around on itself. Electrolysis is not a difficult procedure, but should you want quality equipment and decent yeilds with this you might consider contacting:

Stuart Energy Systems in Toronto, Canada
Teledyne Brown in Maryland
Proton Energy in Rocky Hill, CT, USA
Hydrogen Systems in Montreal, Quebec Canada

I would start with 1.23 V and try working up or down from there, depending of course on the scale to which you wish to attempt this.  Lower voltage and longer reaction times will mean better yeilds.

I was also thinking about the controlled addition of sodium metal into the reaction as it progresses.

2Na + 2H2O ----> H2 + 2NaOH + HEAT

This would seem a viable solution as our unwanted H2O byproduct would then become our reagents of choice.
wink

Sodium metal can be difficult to obtain for some, but even the most ghetto of chemists can rig up a cell with a tin can anode and iron wire cathode to obtain sodium metal from molten NaOH, and just collect it a little at a time until they have enough.  SAFETY NOTE: Of course they would be wearing safety goggles and long sleevestongue

Pr(+)tium
 
 
 
 
    lugh
(Moderator)
09-15-02 04:18
No 356408
      Working to blow up bees  Bookmark   


I was also thinking about the controlled addition of sodium metal into the reaction as it progresses.

2Na + 2H2O ----> H2 + 2NaOH + HEAT

This would seem a viable solution as our unwanted H2O byproduct would then become our reagents of choice.




Sodium, hydrogen and water are a sure recipe for a fire, something you don't seem to understand mad

 
 
 
 
    Protium
(Stranger)
09-15-02 05:18
No 356423
      I must have a target on my ass  Bookmark   

Once again I would have one reference a dictionary, namely the entry for "controlled".  Additionally, this reaction should be run in a solvent such as hexane (in this case erroneously referring to an anhydrous solvent), and the sodium would react only with the molar amount of H2O produced, and I believe that the controlled addition of sodium metal, perhaps also stored in such a medium for addition, would effectively tip the scale of the equilibium to produce quality yeilds.

I wasn't aware that every reaction on this forum had to have a child safety on it.  Perhaps we should begin every procedure with a "LEGAL HAZARD:" notification as well.tongue

It seems to me that people just don't want to believe.frown.  I will leave it to the discretion of the educated.

Good work Flip.

Pr(+)tium
 
 
 
 
    Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
09-15-02 05:34
No 356428
      If an inorganic reaction works, it has already ...  Bookmark   

If an inorganic reaction works, it has already been patented, and you could dig up the patent and post it here, instead of guessing wildly.
 
 
 
 
    lugh
(Moderator)
09-15-02 05:40
No 356429
      Solvents  Bookmark   


this reaction should be run in a solvent such as hexane




Hexane is a curious choice for a solvent in electrolysis; please explain what advantage it offers laugh

 
 
 
 
    Protium
(Stranger)
09-15-02 05:54
No 356431
      Please take the time to READ  Bookmark   

Hexane is a curious choice for a solvent in electrolysis; please explain what advantage it offers

Lugh, please re-read the posts.  It dissapoints me that you criticize my post before you even know what it is that I am speaking of.

In this case the addition of sodium would function as an alternative to electrolysis.

I resent the fact that I must post again in a topic which I had resolved to cease my debate of.  These are not all wild guesses, this is chemistry and mathematics at work, educated guesses.  Do I think that I am 100% right?  No.  It was just a suggestion.  I will be happy to be corrected either way because that will increase my own knowledge and doubtless it will do the same for others.

You people should be thinking about ways to MAKE IT WORK, you are being counter-productive in only thinking of reasons that you think it will not work.  Hexane was just an off the cuff name for a solvent that does not contain water.

We should have more teamwork here at the Hive.

Pr(+)tium
 
 
 
 
    lugh
(Moderator)
09-15-02 06:17
No 356438
      Guessing Games  Bookmark   

Your posts are rather sparse on detail, we're interested in working syntheses, not wild theoretical guesswork laugh Your latest proposal is to use hexane as a reaction solvent for orthoboric acid and sodium hydroxide; and add sodium in small portions, right laugh Here on earth, I haven't seen hexane dissolve such compounds, maybee it's different where you are laugh
 
 
 
 
    Protium
(Stranger)
09-15-02 06:25
No 356440
      Who says they have to be dissolved?  Bookmark   

Who says they have to be dissolved? (<---sarcastic)

Your comments are appreciated lugh, perhaps I did not use the best terms to relate to you that the solvent should not contain water, but the latter was my only intention.  Please reference the words "such as", when used in combination. Being a couch moderator, I think you have become a bit too accustomed to arguing irrelavent details.

The fact is, however, that I have thoroughly reviewed the mathematics of Flip's equation and it is 100% correct.  If you cannot see why this is established then you have no right to criticize minor details. It is late and I am weary, naturally prone to error after long periods without sleep.

There is a difference between winning a battle and winning a war.

If you want to see established synthesis than you sure as hell better establish it.  Flip's equation IS correct.  You can sit here talking shit or you can get to work, but i'm certainly not posting any procedures after this flogging.

And I still hold to the assertion that anyone who would concoct a roundabout reason that borates cannot be reduced to borohydrides is a moron, as this has been well documented.  Furthermore, it is established that B(OH)3 will not react with acids but will react with bases to take on another hydroxy group.

The obvious advantage to this being that I can pick up all of this stuff at the grocery store.  So go ahead, flame away buddy, you're making an ass of yourself, as have all who have attempted to criticize this beautiful and victorious equation.  You've effectively taken a diamond of incredible value and dismissed it as graphite.

Once again, it is left to the discretion of the educated.

Pr(+)tium
 
 
 
 
    moo
(Hive Bee)
09-15-02 12:37
No 356515
      Alright  Bookmark   

Chemistry is an empirical science. Is moron REALLY a person who thinks a reaction is empirically sound before there is an actual method which, quite understandably, has been tested even once? Science is also based on criticism and questioning, but strong belief without proof is typical of religion. Now, I didn't make "Equations schmequations" the subject because I thought equations do not work at all. My point was that if you think an equation proves that something is easy and works, you're seeing the tip of an iceberg.

Protium, do not get upset because if you are right nobody can change it. But bear in mind that you can end up real close to the electrolytical sodium borohydride production patent which indeed is a gem. And the details are most relevant, there is no working procedure without working out the details. If you can't think of which details then do not try. It might cost your life.
 
 
 
 
    Protium
(Stranger)
09-15-02 20:38
No 356597
      Must I hold your hand?  Bookmark   

You have stated that chemistry is an empirical science.  And yet you have undermined the very principles of science with your comments. "Equations schmequations".  You seem to be under the impression that a working method must be produced prior to proving an equation to be sound.  This is not true.  Do you think that einstein came up with the theory of relativity with practical observation?  I can only be amused at the foolish responses this has generated. Can one not use inductive reasoning for such determinations based upon the information given? Primo, buddy, why have you not chimed in?  However, after getting some sleep I am quite happy to walk you through it, and provide some references for your better understanding.


The first principle in proving that this equation is correct would be the reaction of B(OH)3, otherwise known as orthoboric, under basic conditions, to form B(OH)4.  Orthoboric is not amphoteric, it's actually a weak acid.  This can be proven with the concepts of mathematics and electronegativity, and shown with equations:

B(OH)3(aq) + H+(aq) = NO REACTION (B(OH)3 is already acidic)
B(OH)3(s or aq) + OH-(aq) = B(OH)4- (aq)


You may consult http://www.chem.uwa.edu.au/enrolled_students/Chem100/Chem100_sect2/sect2.3.3.1.html for a different variation of this equation which demonstrates the same thing.

And I will also quote:
http://artsandscience.concordia.ca/facstaff/A-C/BIRD/c242/notes_ch12-cwp.html
"B2O3 and B(OH)3 are acidic rather like SiO2 and Si(OH)4 whereas the Al compounds are weakly amphoteric"



Furthermore the ionic properties of sodium also through similar forms of mathematics can be shown to form a salt with said B(OH)4, to form NaB(OH)4.


Now the second principle which seems hard for you folks to grasp is the equalibrium of:

NaBH4 + H2O  <=>  NaB(OH)4 + H2

BH4-, is a tetrahedral compound in which all hydrogens are magnetically equivalent.  NMR spectra would show a 1:1:1:1 resonance.  Might I also point out that the electrolytic conversion of hydroxides to hydrides is also well documented and proven.


Furthermore the reaction of sodium with water to produce sodium hydroxide and hydrogen is also proven, but it occured to me that the process of electrolytic reduction would also create NaH from NaOH in the process and the NaH would react with the water to form NaOH and more hydrogen, so this already occurs with the electrolytic method which would be superior.

NaH + H2O --> NaOH + H2


Now if at this point you cannot see the established method for the creation of sodium borohydride from orthoboric than you are either a fool, a moron, or you need to find references on electrolysis.  The reaction as a whole is proven as the sum of it's parts.

Electrolysis is not a difficult procedure, and a writeup would be more than simple as all the neccessary variables are documented and can be referenced without further experimentation.  The experiment would be carried out in an anhydrous polar solvent, to facilitate the dissociation of ionic compounds and inhibit the violent reaction with water.

Rest assured your concern for my health has been noted, moo.  However, the handling of hydrides and hydrogen gas emissions is trusted even by universities to the average college sophmore.  This reaction is only dangerous if you do not know what you are doing, or are working without the proper equipment. 

Of course, your comments on criticism in the scientific method are correct.  However this is just about as applicable as your analogy of carbon shifts to chemical reactivity.  When one criticizes an argument it is customary to produce a counter-argumentIE I have sat here and given you all the reasons why it works, and unless you can come up with a solid reason why it does not work then you have no place in the conversation, and roundabout analogies and the teasing of asshole couch moderators only serves to cloud the scientific process.

Like I said we need more teamwork.  The process of production is obvious to anyone with an education in chemistry.  The only thing left in question is the yeilds.  The Hive is beginning to show a lack in it's academia. These concepts are obvious to anyone who is familiar with hydrogen fuel cell research.  Are we all but pathetic cooks who must wait to slobber all over writeups when the answers are right under our noses?

Here all my ultimatums to all Hive bees who wish to post anything besides questions in the chemistry discourses:

You need to learn new reactions as they appear.
You need to know mechanisms.
You need some basic principles of reactions.
You need to be creative.

You should not place limitations on what the Hive can acheive as a collective academic force.

No, this is not in the search engine. No, this is not in Sam's patent database.  Flip has devised a method of producing NaBH4 from over the counter materials that was previously unheard of on the hive.


Pr(+)tium
 
 
 
 
    yellium
(Hive Addict)
09-15-02 21:08
No 356607
      *plonk*  Bookmark   

*plonk*
 
 
 
 
    Flip
(Flipout the Dolphin)
09-16-02 03:07
No 356738
      Lugh, what's up with banning this guy?
(Rated as: bitching)
 Bookmark   

Hey bees, check out Protium's message in his profile

Is it standard practice to ban people whom you dislike?

Is it acceptable to silence the voice of those who may contribute?

IS THIS THE POLICY OF THE HIVE?

Should moderators be allowed dictatorial powers?

In a related story I feel sick to my core.

EDIT: Lugh, the procedure is obvious, I need no one else to do any work for me. 

And the equation is correct.



Flip

Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.
 
 
 
 
    lugh
(Moderator)
09-16-02 03:17
No 356745
      Banning  Bookmark   

You aren't running this place, we are, and I'm not the only mod that wanted to ban Protium laugh If you continue with your current attitude about simple scientific skepticism, you're going to find it difficult to function laugh This thread needs to be locked mad