SHORTY (Newbee)
11-26-02 18:36
No 383567
      The Secret behind Potency of Meth     

Swim has asked this once in the past but has yet to find a clear explaination.  So what is the secret behind the potency of meth?
I understand that when pseudo/ephed are properly reduced their chemical structure is that of meth.  This should be quite simple ie; either it is or isn't meth. 
But, if this were actually true then why is it that swim as well as most other bees find that the potency varies from each batch?  Even after a proper recrystalization is performed and one should have nearly 100% pure meth, the potency is never quite the same.
Swim has been thinking it was all in his head.  however, a recent post by geez in which he states that the potency of the product of a long reflux is much higher than a short dry rxn, (swim agrees w/geez) has got swim wondering once again what the scientific explaination is.
Swim has heard that it is due to certain impurities due to side rxns etc.  however, a proper rxtalzzation should take care of most of those impurities.
Swim has also heard it is due to the state of swims body condition ie; wether or not swim has eaten, drinking, sleeping properly etc. 
but although that seems to make sense, swim just doesn't feel that this is the answer either. 

So does anybee have a reasonable xplaination? 

I just wannabeeabee cause I wannabee!
(Hive Bee)
11-26-02 18:39
No 383568

look at the stereochemistry of the molecules, the d and l isomers are what you need to be concerned with.  d-meth is more potent than l-meth (somebody here needs to verify this, aurelius can't remember for sure)

racemic mix (50/50 of each d and l isomers)
(Hive Bee)
11-26-02 19:25
No 383588
      u dont get l-meth from rp/i reduction.     

u dont get l-meth from rp/i reduction.
11-26-02 20:57
No 383612
      anecdotal evidence:     

from what swim has seen, most people do not weigh out their dosage...they go by eye...and it can vary quite dramaticly.
have you noticed this phenomena when weighing equal amts. of different batches? (assuming both are recrystalized)

slow or fast shouldn't matter, except in terms of yield...assuming the unreduced portion does not make it into the final crystal.

they say the best go-go has been blessed by the pope.
(Bee of the Month)
11-26-02 21:35
No 383627
      other similar side products     

Your question is based on the assumption that crystalization works to selectively isolate methamphetamine and that no other molecules appear in the crystal lattice. If that were true, all meth would be of equal potency. I suspect the assumption is at least in part incorrect. Pure methamphetamine crystals would no doubt form under ideal circumstances. I doubt very much that the cicumstances most meth crystals are grow in are ideal, or that most meth crystals are pure methamphetamine. Most contain some by products and some unreduced iodomethamphetamine.

If you recrystalize the meth crystals several times, they will become cleaner, purer, and stronger. You will notice after each recrystalization that the mother liquor has the odor of something other than meth. It will have trash that is not included in the crystal lattice this time, but was the last time that crystal formed. Slow crystal formation results in purer crystals than rapid crystal formation. Neither assures you that the crystal is "pure" methamphetamine. An improvement, yes. Pure, probably not.

It may also be that when one grows meth crystals, these crystals may be intermixed with crystals of unreduced iodometh, or other such impostors. How can you be sure that the multitude of crystal formations one sees are all meth?

Interestingly enough, the meth from SWIG's first 36 hour reflux was not recrystalized at all. It was used as it was, after evaporation and acetone flashing. (Time was short, and the demons were hungry.) The potency that was noticed was no doubt the result of there being fewer byproducts in the mix of what was in the pile. It had nothing to do with recrystalization. The product of his second long reflux was recrystalized once, in a rather fast fashion rather than a long, slow growth mode. Not what SWIG would call artful crystals, but definitely potent. Stuff that spinouts for the unwary are made of. Not to say that a long, slow recrystalization would have improved the product, it would. The product was not completely clean after one crystalization. It left noticable trash on glass, and he has made it before that left virtually no traces after being vaporized in glass.  The long reflux allowed more complete reduction, and a greater concentration of methamphetamine among the molecules in the crystals formed. The crystals were of greater potentcy than those which contained more impurities. The stuff from which the crystals were grown was purer and the crystals themselves purer than those obtained from less completely reduced batches.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
11-26-02 22:18
No 383650
      Longer reflux vs purity of precursors     

A longer reflux does not necessarily produce more potent meth.

The biggest factor is the overall reduction of pseudo/ephy.

Other factors come into play as well. Purity of precursors come to mind. (Trash in, trash out) PEG will do this I believe (IMHO) Unclean RP and overused RP without adjustment of ratios...

Swis has had 4 hr rxns come out stronger then a 12 hr reflux without a recrystalization even becoming necessary.

It stands to reason that the longer the rxn, a higher percentage of starting feed is reduced. 36 hr refluxes do not "necessarily" produce better honey then a 12 hr cook.

Keeping all ratios and factors (time/temp) consistent can also produce varying results.

I believe Jacked said it best when he said something to the effect that the end result is directly proportionate to effort applied.

Cleanliness of feed is the dominant factor (IMHO)

36-72 hr refluxes are overkill for PIE unless one chooses to employ a method calling for hydriotic acid.

Something to think about... How often does one see any remaining activity in the flask after 12 hrs?

Get out the PEG...

(Hive Addict)
11-27-02 01:43
No 383732
      Old Dawgs...New Tricks!!!     

Geez Summed it UP and his confirmations are a welcome addition. Ibee stumbled onto a five dayer about a year ago and was instantly converted, never to return to the daze of old!
He agrees with Scottydog on the point about Pristeen Cleanliness. Why do you think he's been force feeding this to newbees and oldbees alike! I agree that Ibee's methods of discription leave much to be desired, but don't let that muddle the facts! He's been working more on that by playing less with the aroma's of Kittylitter!!!
Scotty: Ibee knows SWISD well enough to know that he doesn't hold contempt for anything, prior to investigation....Ibee implores SWISDC to try the long slow reflux! The benefits are well worth the intial mindset needed to wait it out and TEND to it like he was growing something with a cathexis!
Ibee and the Kidz....or Geez would never intentionally steer anybody wrong....whether they got Brakes or Not!
Ibee's recreated an HI situation(which BTW is what is produced when Marrying I2 and RP) by holding off on the the addition of dh20 at the time it is called for when refluxing for days! He'll prolong the rxn with the addition of I2 and sometimes RP, like the big boys would do when using HI straight!
Then at thelast minute, bring it to completion with the final addfiton of dh2o!
Gotta run for now!
Try It you'll like it!

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
11-27-02 02:06
No 383742
      Re: u dont get l-meth from rp/i reduction.     

u dont get l-meth from rp/i reduction.

And how was it you came to validate this fact exactly?

Regards, Hematite.
(Bear With Me)
11-27-02 02:13
No 383745
      He likely...     

He likely meant that commonly employed optical isomer of pseudo that many dream of using in their synths will not the give l-isomer when using standard synth protocol; however, racemic pseudo/ephedrine would, of course, yield a racemic product, hence the l-methamphetamine, as you suggested above...

That my guess,



To achieve, you must.
The answer will hit, like a big orgasm.
If you listen, they never lie.
(Hive Bee)
11-27-02 03:44
No 383774
      any ways     

direct reduction of l-eph sulfate using some acid shyte from rhodiums large scale production wood zip doc gets the strongest meth you can make beez.

hatred of ontological wastes, and the marathon!!!!
i cook to save the planet!!
11-27-02 05:03
No 383790


if iodometh is compatible with meth hcl, as far as making a large transparent crystal, than why would re-crystalizations necessarily squeeze it out of the lattice? why would one ever bee rid of it?
(Employee Supervisor)
11-27-02 05:58
No 383800

C'mon guys. Meth is meth. You either have it...or you don't.

It really is that simple.

Of all 36 ways to get out of trouble, the best way is ľ leave
11-27-02 06:10
No 383804
      Zib, the key to this is in one's choice of ...     

Zib, the key to this is in one's choice of solvent, either prior to or during the re-xtl process, exploiting their differing solubility to effect seperation.

Regards, Hematite.
(Employee Supervisor)
11-27-02 06:13
No 383805
      Don't ignore me, Heme! :-P     

Don't ignore me, Heme! tongue

Of all 36 ways to get out of trouble, the best way is ľ leave
11-27-02 09:32
No 383838
      You know I'd never do that chickadee, there just ...     

You know I'd never do that chickadee, there just wasn't a naughty angle available for me to sneak in on hehehe.

Regards, Hematite.
11-27-02 09:34
No 383840
      a factor over looked ....     

one factor over looked
is the ph of the final product.
because adding of limiting amounts of pool acid
will result in a mixture of meth hcl and a little
free base meth.this

and adding the correct amount of pool acid
will result in pure meth hcl at whatever ph that is

and adding more pool acid then is nessary.
will result in meth hcl and some pool acid "traped
in the crystals"

these three extraction ratios will give a PRODUCT
with three differnt PHs
the most acidic with the excess pool acid
then higher for the correct pool acid to meth ratios
and the highest with the meth to pool acid in excess.

and because all meth gets free based in your blood
before it goes into your brain.
and the fact that high PH meth goes into your brain
this factor plus the state of your blood ph
will affect how stong the drug feels.

i dont think iodioephed has any bearing as because it
is black tar "its that black stuff that doesnt wash
out of the 1/2 cooked batchs flask."
there isnt very much in white cristals.

and uncooked E in the product will also be very small
if the meth cristlizes quickly when melted.

i would say if your shit recristalizes when melted
it is pure.
or purer then you can tell the differnce bettween it and 100%.

so id say "asuming you can when doing A/B etc"
get shit that comes back quickly.

that your differnces are in the final ph of the product
and /or the PH of your blood.

if you dont think your blood PH has that big
of an effect.
try this the next time you do a hit and start feeling
like you did to much.

when you wish to come down just breath in a paper bag.
this saturates your blood with acidic CO2 gas
and acidic blood pulls the shit out of your CNS into
your water soluble blood where you dont feel it.
"notice thou when you stop breating into the bag
some of the high returns"

and vice versa if you want to feel it more.
just hperventalate....
like you would breath if you were running.

this lowers the CO2 in the blood and raises the PH
that causes the meth in your blood to croos the
blood/brain bearer into your CNS where you will feal
its effects. 
11-27-02 16:26
No 383903
      stoni? are you ignoring me?!     

(btw, i agree)

though i don't really know.

but i suspect that, especially if one is inhaling vaporized meth, it would bee quite obvious (flavor) if a good percentage of the vapours were iodo-meth
(Bee of the Month)
11-27-02 18:37
No 383929
      lattice compatibility     

Lattice compatibility of an intermediate suggests a basis for increased potentcy of a crystal of meth obtained after a long reflux as compared to a crystal obtained after a shorter one.

I agree that if the batch is unfinished, or only partly finished, you can detect the adulterant when you vaporize the meth crystal. (A fairly recent posts by Geez notes the aroma and taste of incomplete by products, notably iodometh when smoking) This odor and taste is apparent particularly with the fast-hot-dry cook street meth in my area. It burns clean on glass, it rerocks, it crystalizes. It is not a powerful form of meth. It is not pure enough. It takes a quarter paper to get Geez off. Even crystalized. Some other intermediate is present in the lattice and stays in the lattice. If the same batch of ingredients is processed for four to five hours, rather than the forty five minutes of the fast cook, the potentcy goes up by an order of magnitude. SWIG has done this and compared results with the young street cook he was trying to persuade with the same ingredients from the same bags in each batch.

If you took what SWIG considered done at five hours and refluxed it for the rest of the day, for twelve hours or so, the product is noticeably stronger still. SWIG notes the greatest increase in product potentcy between the first and fifth hours; observes an increase at twelve, but not as substantial; has noted that the thirty six hour product is very potent, but not what he would call an order of magnitude more potent than the 12 hour product.

When the only variable is the length of the cook, and the product increases in strength with time on a less than direct proportion, this suggests to SWIG and Geez that the shorter term cook simply fails to convert as much feedstock to final product as the longer term cook, and leaves in the mix a partially reduced intermediate compatible with the crystal meth lattice.

That, of course, is his opinion. He could be wrong, and frequently is. This would not mark the first time he was wrong by any stretch of the imagination. The idea that an intermediate is compatible with the meth crystal lattice sure seems to fit his understanding of what is happening, and logically answers the distinctions he notes. Too bad the local forensic lab does not do qualitative analysis of meth from the street. It would be easy to have some tested if they did to verify whether Geez' suppositions were correct.

Mostly harmless
11-27-02 21:14
No 383972
      Let's retrace our steps a little Geez     

Since iodometh is easily removed in acetone (unsure of iodoephedrine solubiltiy) this at least should not be a factor in a re-xtal anyway.
Geez, remember we had agreed on the fact that one noticable difference in the feel of the lengthy reluxed gear, was a certain euphoria? To me this is the clue. I believe the euphoric aspect of the reluxed gear is easily noticed, as it is lacking in gear from most other rxns proported to yield d-meth that account for the greater portion of meth around today, regardless of the thouroughness of the reduction, in fact I would be more inclined to say thye difference is not so much potency but a tasty 'quality'.

I think it's safe to assume that over time even between you and I geez, that we would have both managed at least one rxn whereby the reduction was at it's optimum and the gear in it's purest possible state.....and the euphoric angle I speak of has not been present for me, and your comments here reflect the same, so I don't think it's at all to do with purity, but the mechanics of the reductive process.
Argue as everyone may, I still think this is to do with chirality. But then I also like being the odd one out :)

Regards, Hematite.
11-27-02 21:28
No 383980
      oh by the way     

The dude or dude-ess with the pool acid...........interesting stuff!tongue

Regards, Hematite.
(Bee of the Month)
11-27-02 21:52
No 383988
      Heme's point is well taken     

Point well taken Heme. I have noticed that longer reflux does tend to give more of the euphoric effect, while shorter time-of-reflux dope does provide the stay awake and sometimes teeth grinding aspect of speed. My atributions to incompletely reduced intermediates may be completely offbase, and a good qualitative analysis of several batches certainly would be educational. I lack this capability, but I could speak with a former client who does just this sort of work for the state's regional crime lab...a little risky, yes, but probably not too much so.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
11-27-02 22:34
No 383998
      old timers     

Some time ago SWiSD remembers talking to some of the old-timers Most all of them would swear by 36 or 48 hrs.

SWiSD has been convinced by Ibee, Geez and others, to go with the longer reflux times, and confirms their claims. Thanx guys

Several claimed that the old pop-top in the RNX was the "way" SWISD tried that years ago but was never convinced of it's usefulness.

Can any bee comment further on what that is supposed to achieve?

And,.....Yes, that is my real eye !!
11-28-02 01:04
No 384028
      zib is confused for a change     

heme and geez? if you're still in the house, might you furthar an old fools education?

isn't the post rxn (rp/I2) goods in the form of meth-iodide?
and isn't that compound the normal, desired, fully reduced item that a  bee seeks?
and isn't it the a/b that allows said compound to bee freed of its iodine (during basing) so it can flee naked into the non polar? and when the acidified water is added (or HCl gassed into the np) the fb meth is able to pick up the chlorine? to beecome meth-HCl? which seems to bee its most usefull form?

is the iodo-meth a totally different molecule?

if not, i can't see how it could survive the a/b as an iodide salt...and go on to take up a home in a large crystal matrix of meth hcl?

(not razzing ya', geez...i'm at least as dumb as you and wareami put together!)

i'd bee alot happier about all of this discrepency in power of meth if i felt pretty certain that doses were dry and weighed beefore any weird hunches take it furthar than that.

in fact, given the wide variance in the way we feel, day to day, should say alot about the objectivity in this issue...zib's sure as hell experienced this daily difference in lsd doses of identical quantity and quality...
sometimes, i'd get all bloated and have gastrointestinal if the 200 micrograms was enough to poison my gut...had alot more to do with what i had last eaten, and how digested it was b-4 i elected to divert the flow of blood from my digestive system to my brain.
other times, the acid would "make'  me shake and shudder and bumb around hard...if i hadn't have been hip to the joke, i'd have thought that particular hit was "dosed with strychnine or amphetamines" i've heard so many times from trippers.

sorry to bore the fuck out of all of conclusion: even drugless, or daily variance of experience is quite extraordinary. once in awhile, even straight, the world dishes you out a truly magnificent day.
should one also happen to bee tripping, tweeking, or rolling on that day, the tendancy might bee to think that that was the absolutely best go-go ever!
and it would bee used as a reference point in one's mental inventory; thru which all other drug shall bee judged.
hopefully, some can see the inherent subjectivity of the analyses..even if its all weighed and measured.

but the only thing zib can fathom that could rest this debate is a real high-end labratory analyses of the 2 meth batches in question.

last note: as many seem to bee doing th vapours, it is easy to imagine that, during the crap-shoot of heating the glass, the molecule may break into some other things on the way into your lungs...that wouldn't necessarily bee perceptible with the taste buds or nose or eyes
(Employee Supervisor)
11-28-02 05:42
No 384146

however, racemic pseudo/ephedrine would, of course, yield a racemic product, hence the l-methamphetamine, as you suggested above...

Surely you know that is not true, PB. The reduction of either (-)ephedrine or (+)psuedo-ephedrine yields (+)methamphetamine.

I know you must already know this.

Of all 36 ways to get out of trouble, the best way is ľ leave
(Hive Addict)
11-28-02 09:58
No 384229
      euphoric effect     

Not long ago ' SWIHFT never had any cooks take more then 2 hours to full gogo mean ass shit'he's still working in hopes of doing those again.

Now everyone is talking 36 hrs' and while he wont argue this might bee a better end result' he's still not convinced it's time that really matters 'now he's tried the 12 and 24 hr cooks without much change in product.

he's done 8 hr cooks lately that actually seemed to bee better quality ' it's mostly IMHO beecause of how the reactions are handled and knowing what to look for'and how clean is the shit going in'''''''plus he thinks locking the rxn so it's air tight when finished plays a big role' some may argue' but these are his

  " Please do not feed "  

11-28-02 11:44
No 384272
      Zib, the iode of eph or psuedo is the ...     

Zib, the iode of eph or psuedo is the intermediate that is reduced to meth or one of several side reaction products when in HI, and can be present at rxn's end if the reduction was incomplete.
So logic suggests that I wrote that backasswards in the post a couple up from this, you get that.

Handsfull2, I believe I have at times produced the best possible combination of everything and the gear of utmost purity. Still it lacks in the particular quality I speak of here that I have only had from the reflux's like a reminder of the first time you did meth in a small way, a taste of that element of inspiration or something. Iodocompounds are pshycoactive are they not? Perhaps it's just that lol.

Regards, Hematite.
(Hive Bee)
11-28-02 12:57
No 384294
      long or short reactions in relation to "potency"     

Swim will 100% agree with the advocates of long reflux times, the high is better, "euphoric", and longer lasting overall.
In past days when a simple "aqueous" a/b extraction, or even an alcohol extraction would produce nice clean feedstock, and Lab Grade I2 and RP were bountiful, swim only dreamed of 2-3hr push/pull. And thought the product was great.
 Now swim has seen the light, longer refluxes, with added h2o, simply produce a much better product, period. The effect is of euphoria, energy and exhilaration. Instead of an over-focused, hectic confused buzz. Even when todays tainted feedstock is used.

Why? Being of weak chemistry knowledge, swim will assume it is simply more good old d-meth produced.
 What is the impurity in fast cook dope? It doesn't taste or smell like E(or Pfed). It's certainly not an E buzz. It seems to be indistinguishable from meth, and recrystalizes up to a large degree with good product. Swim is not positive, but entertains a simpleton's theory.
 Swims understanding may be wrong totally, so slap swim if you know better, however... During the reaction of Ephedrine HCL or Pfed (or freebase), isn't the feedstock changed at some point to idioephedrine HI? Then if the reaction progresses properly on to meth HI, or maybe meth HCL somewhat if HCL is in the mix? Is it then possible for idioephedrine to go right through an a/b and be titriated ultimately as idioephedrine HCL?

When ephedrine is heated with hydriodic acid, with red phosphorus (Caution,
Ref. 3) or without, initially the hydroxyl is replaced with iodine (to give

 Swim has come to this conclusion from this statement found in the Meth Impurities document,  in the x-files, and he believes Rhodium's site as well. Swim may be off base though.
 Additionally, as many have stated, "dry" reactions should be more prone to all the nasty impurities caused by acid hydrolysis (acid dehydration), when there isn't enough water to go around, and temps get to high. Swim isn't sure to what degree these by-products typically find there way into the final product, but they must certainly be very meth-like.
 If someone is happy with product from fast rxn, go for it, if the feed is clean going in swim wouldn't turn down the product.  But swim is a refluxin' machine, from here on in.

 As far dose size goes, even when large amounts of the "fast reaction", type product is consumed, that lovely "euphoric" effect from "reflux" product just doesn't seem to happen for swim. Why? Don't know.

Iń-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iń Iń!
(Hive Addict)
11-28-02 13:50
No 384309

Hematite''''I guess like everything else we long for that first time feeling.

I agree a longer reflux is much better then a dry rxn' time is the only problem here''SWIHFT don't have 36 hrs of patience everytime he puts his chef clothes on .

A reflux for 8 to 12 hrs seems to bee enough for some good gogo'' but he will give the 36 hr flux a try sometime just to see for himself what all the hip dip is about. wink

  " Please do not feed "  

(Hive Addict)
11-28-02 15:46
No 384320
      Reading the tell tale signs of completion     

Swis has found over the years that a rxn is either complete or it is not.

If the rxn fluid progresses from a black, to red color, to yellow, to clear liquid raining down the sides of the flask and no matter how much extra water, iodine is added or temperature increased and there is absolutely no activity remaining... The reaction is finished!

Sometimes these signs become apparent earlier then others.

Sometimes after 2-4 hrs and occasionally as long as 12-16hrs with MBRP that is reused multiple times.

Swis has gone as far as a 24 hr reflux when shy on I2 and noticed no apparent difference in potency then what can be achieved in 8-12hrs.

No disrespect to Geez, Wareami and the entire gambit of bees on this board.

Are there any tiny bubbles still surfacing in my flask that isn't just water boiling?

If the rxn is complete after 12 hrs what good is letting it reflux an additional 24 hrs going to do for Swis? Nothing... (IMHO)

Might as well have 3 flasks going every 8-12hrs and recover 3x as much "fully reduced" product within the same time frame...wink

I firmly believe that every rxn varies. Even when keeping all factors constant, consistent results cannot be predicted. Its all in the tell tale signs of what should be evident in a completed rxn.

If 36 hrs of refluxing works for YOU. By all means run with it! Swis pushes the rxn to the limit every time and 36 hrs simply isn't necessary.

I would say that 8-12hrs should be optimum. A theoretical point of diminishing returns concerning potency.

There comes a time in every rxn where one must ask him/herself. Am I increasing potency or wasting time?
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-28-02 16:19
No 384321
      It's kinda fun to read all that poetic waxing ...
(Rated as: excellent)

It's kinda fun to read all that poetic waxing about "potency" and stuff, but that doesn't explain it clearly enough to the next moron who will read it and start some new urban myths in his area which will without a doubt spread and end up here again.

What we have is a reaction converting A (precursor) and B (HI) into an intermediate C (iodometh) and finally into the desired end product D (meth) and a whole lot of different side products and contaminants(e, f, g, h... etc):

A + B ------> [C] ------> D (A + C + e + f + g + h...)

A + C being mentioned on the product side of the equation means there will also be some unconverted precursor and intermediate present.
Amounts and distribution patterns of D and (A, C, e, f, g, h...) in your end product depend on a whole lot of factors, mainly reaction conditions, but also on the workup procedure, method of crystallization and method of recrystallization. Needless to say, if A isn't pure and contains other chemicals the product distribution will be even more complicated.

As every chemist knows, chemical reactions take TIME to go to completion. While there are a few incredibly fast reactions which take only milliseconds or less to finish, the HI reduction is unfortunately not among them!
And every chemist will tell you, that stoichometry is also very important. When one of reactands is present in excess then it will be left over afterwards, and the conversion of the reactand which was not in excess will undergo a more complete conversion. This also means that if there is an insufficient amount of a chemical present the reaction CANNOT be completed for the other reactand being present in excess!

A good example for that last case is the 'dry' fast rP/I2 reaction. There isn't sufficient H2O present to convert all the I2 into HI, so it is absolutely impossible that this one converts all precursor A into product D. The result will be a wild ass mixture of a little D plus a shitload of unconverted A, intermediate C, and the usual e, f, g, h... crap. Since the purification methods used by garage chemists are usually insufficient to properly separate the components that wild ass ugly mixture is what you will end up with. Proof: ref. on Rhodium's claiming 50 impurities present in such meth. Shitty taste. Peanut butter appearance.
Since it is close to impossible to completely separate desired product mixture containing D (meth ) from all the other shit in a garage setting, especially A and C (which happen to have very similar solubilities as D!), the amount of pure D in the end product will be rather low, and the amount of toxic side products rather high.
I guess most of you would call that stuff 'low potency' meth. Some morons will call that 'good' meth, because the taste and toxic action is what they expect meth to be like.
I call it impure, dirty, toxic and lots of unconverted precursor present.

So what to do to get a better end product?
I) make sure that there's enough B (HI) present to convert all the A (precursor) into D (meth)
II) for condition I to be fulfilled, you have to add enough water to the reaction! Because if there's not enough water around your I2 will not be converted into HI! Also: gaseous HI which is not in solution will not contribute to the reaction. Make sure that the HI has water to dissolve in! Common sense!
III) give the reaction enough time to complete! Fulfilling conditions I and II will still be useless if you don't give A, B and C enough time to complete their reaction to yield D!
IV) Since the cleanup methods available to most bees are rather limited in separation efficiency and since a high yield is desired make sure that the amounts and number of side products (e, f, g, h...) are as small as possible to begin with. Meaning: no flask fires! No excessive reaction conditions!

There is a reason why some of the old timers and bees with a chemical background have always been telling you to do it one way and not the other! It's inevitable that a bunch of wild and reckless youngins will keep challenging the status quo and come up with new ways and 'improvements', that's how progress is made. But not all 'improvements' are really what they claim they are, and all it takes is to start some group dynamics and the whole herd will stampede towards the abyss. Like someone claiming having done a dry reaction in 30 mins and the end product was "way potent dude!" Some wannabees repeating it, failing, and not wanting to admit to themselves and their bee-friends who they bragged  about their mad chemi skillz that they fucked up the reaction so they confirm the results. Then a bunch of inexperienced bees who read all that, try it out themselves, produce some weak ass mmmeth!, and publicly confirming the result that "this indeed works!!!"
Next comes a charismatic dude who loves to be the center of attention, talks shit about those who know some chemistry backgrounds and publicly claims that "tweakers don't need any of that scientific hoopla to cook some potent chili! Fuck yeah!". Add some easy to follow writeup for the morons and soon everyone is following the new shitty procedure, totally rejecting and forgetting what were once established (and working!) procedures. That's what happened to the A/B at the end of the reaction which once used to be standard procedure, and that's what happened to long reflux.

That's how rumours and urban legends are started. Offer an easy solution and everyone will love you for it. Doesn't matter if the easy solution will not work, it is what the people want to hear and want to believe! Works in politics, and apparently works among bees too. Sad but true.

I say: gently boil that reaction for as long as you can.
Boil for not long enough: you will end up with unconverted precursor and intermediate in your end product. Which you CANNOT separate from your end product easily. And those who manage that will bitch about low yield.
Boil for too long: nothing bad will happen. All precursor is converted. No intermediate is left over. Meth is pretty stable under these conditions and will not decompose. Yield of end product (*potency* wink) is maximised.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
(Hive Bee)
11-28-02 16:53
No 384325
      I second everything Os said     

I second everything Os said

Catalytic hydrogenation freak
(Employee Supervisor)
11-28-02 17:07
No 384331
      OH me TOO!' Os is the best. Os knows it all.     

OH me TOO!'

Os is the best. Os knows it all. Listen to Os.

Of all 36 ways to get out of trouble, the best way is ľ leave
(Bear With Me)
11-28-02 19:22
No 384344

Surely you know that is not true, PB. The reduction of either (-)ephedrine or (+)psuedo-ephedrine yields (+)methamphetamine.

I know you must already know this.

But I said "racemic" reactant would result in racemic product, no?  I was very aware of the optical isomers resulting in d-meth. 


edit: Oh, I see how that could have been misleading.  Where I said "hence the l-methamphetamine, as you suggested above," I meant it was in addition to the d-methamphetamine; my bad.  I seem to leave my sentences hanging in limbo these days...

To achieve, you must.
The answer will hit, like a big orgasm.
If you listen, they never lie.
(Hive Addict)
11-29-02 06:44
No 384530
      Thanx Os     

For the time and this confirmation which so many seem to balk at! Rhodium confirmed this very same thing months ago.
BenWiffen has been advertising the benefits to bee had for even longer than just a few months!
It's no real big secret that Ibee stumbled onto this by accident one year ago!
As you said, Most write-ups that are in laymans terms, directed at those starting out, emphasize ease and quick times from start to finish! It doesn't require a degree in Physics or Org. Chem to succeed!
But are they really succeeding? This was the challenge that Ibee proposed by suggesting a measly 24hour mindset!
He knew that a 3 or five day controlled reaction wouldn't be received as being beneficial, let alone taken as fact.
This is why when Rhodium posted "The Facts", Ibee was beside himself, because he knew that some smart bees would give it GO, that carry more influence than Ibee does. Subsequently posting their results!

Anybee without a chemistry background that would argue with a chemist will succeed at failing! 
The simple fact that no two rxns are alike should be evidence to all that there is more going on than meets the eye! And You Os make a clear and concise confirmation, that even the best skeptic couldn't argue with!
Ibee challenged bees to simply try to change their mindset to "High Patience"...and give the long reflux a shot!
We see how many have responded...
If Ibee had been misleading Bess for the past year and a half, It's HIGHLY unlikely that he'd be permitted to even bee here!
Bee's would be doing themselves a great service if they'd listen to this sound advice!
Ibee even challenged a post by Os about the levels of impurities and where this justification came from!
Os posted three links and Ibee read all three links thoroughly and completely, a few times each, until some of that information started to soak in.
Ibee still was at a loss in explaining why those amounts of impurities were clearly not present in his "End Result"!
Upon Rhodium posting those benefits in Chemistry Terminology, Ibee had all the confirmation and understanding he needed to start pushing this hard!
He did and still does push it, just as he pushes purity in starting precursors!
If Ibeeware posted something that would result in bees wasting Five days of their life, without any evidence or proof that it's benefitial, He'd have been the laughing stock here! Well he is anywaylaugh, but that's okay!
They say laughter is the best RX
Thanx Os for this exemplification!!! And Thanx to All Bees that point others in the right direction.....
Toward a less toxic, more pure (and Potent)"End RESULT", through the efforts applied!!!
Peace of the REaction

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
11-29-02 09:11
(Rated as: insignificant)
(Hive Bee)
11-29-02 10:53
No 384552

Swim is going to melodramatic now, so excuse him....

  Add a buffer to our Holy Salt...Blasphemy!!!!

Thank You for indulging Swim.

Iń-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iń Iń!
11-29-02 17:41
No 384606
      is this why biz claimed his dreams were boring?     

and i thought he was just a pussy who didn't want to see any fireworks!
(Hive Addict)
11-30-02 06:37
No 384811
      I hear ya     

Hey Zib: Ibee's always been somewhat of a scientific voyeur. You know...watching molecules getting it on and creating matter of strange origins! Which by most would be considered boring...unless they could join in the fun!laughlaughlaugh
Wait til the couch potatoes start hearing those molecular screams in the throws of X-stacy!!!tonguetonguetongue

Peace of the REaction

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
11-30-02 16:04
No 384910
      Handfullx2 Re: Hematite''''I guess like ...     


Hematite''''I guess like everything else we long for that first time feeling.

After 16 betcha! lol

Os, all of what you said is quite right (well at least right enough to avoid another debate, and experience tells me that's a good thing hehe.)
My angle on this is not necessarilly concerning the relative completeness of either reaction format, but more to do with a particular aspect of the high from the resulting product. This aspect has been noted very rarely in any gear I have had in the past 5 years, and when it was there it has always been from the reflux in HI for a long duration. I find it impossible to believe that only a lengthy reflux can produce a product with this aspect, and only through the more complete reduction overall of the feedstock. The reason I am so fixated on this is because years ago I spent a considerable amount of time reducing feedstock by reflux in HI, in varying degrees of completeness (read; It's lucky I have no reduction %'ages to quote believe me!)It is from those days that I discovered this aspect, even in the crap I used to ignorantly think might be ready to try after an hour or so, so to me there is something else within this reaction that is not present in any of the others that I've had the chance to sample from at least.

Regards, Hematite.
11-30-02 16:27
No 384915
      aw, what the hell!     

for all we know, there might bee a magical proton that buzzes around the universe, occasionaly gracing us with its presence...and we're left trying to explain magic as if it was science

(Miss High & Mighty)
11-30-02 17:39
No 384929
      i dony give a frig what all u say.     

i dony give a frig what all u say.Osmium is the greatest.
I love osmium for ever.

This aint insignificant,Tis` fact
(Employee Supervisor)
12-02-02 02:59
No 385291
      Leave him alone ballz. He's MINE.     

Leave him alone ballz. He's MINE.

Of all 36 ways to get out of trouble, the best way is ľ leave
12-02-02 08:22
No 385384
      Yeah, let's get back to the important stuff.     

Glad there's someone around here to make sure SWIM doesn't write insignificant posts. He doesn't mean to, and Lord knows, he wouldn't want to interupt this intillechull discussion.

Physician heal thyself!

12-02-02 15:55
No 385503
      the secret potency of mood-swings:     

can't recall if zib is playing devil's advocate, or the other advocacy program...but this he is sure of:

we don't hear similar talk regarding other molecules around here.
bees don't seem to fixate on the mystery of mdma potency, for instance...except in matters of the new pills beeing short, or cut...and of course, the well-known loss of magic that seems to occurr with frequent rolling.
why this special place for the meth molecular mystery?
swim is a non-frequent tweeker; small dose-sort of guy; only the best; always the same stuff...yet. one time, it will bee almost 'magic'; another time (same gear, same dose) swim will bee depressed, and almost de-energized by the indulgence.
occasionly, it even seems to increase swim's hunger, and he'll eat a large amount of food.

i suppose swim almost 'expects' this sort of variance now...which implies the possibility that swim could 'play into' that aspect of the drug's effect...the crap-shoot aspect.

(other than that, zib can well imagine that smokers could get a varied result due to the touchy temperature controls, and the by-products that could bee produced in the pipe from over heating)
(Hive Addict)
12-03-02 00:58
No 385653
      Ibee could eat a horse     

But they keep saying "Neigh"!laugh
Plus his personal ride was traded in last year for the much more modern form of transport!
Zib:It's always been Ibees experience while Bio`ing, that when a large percentage of unconverted is present, he still retains an appetite!
Now 0ver the past six months, Ibee and the Kidz have been experimenting heavily with this long cooking times phenomena, in an effort to discover the underlying causes and effects. In order to do this properly, they have had to make several 30%, 50%, 70% on UP, conversions!
This was accomplished with much patience and dedication toward not focusing much on the end result.
These comparisons were all small scale!
While it wasn't experimenting for the sake of utilizing the end product, taste testing was the final indicator as to what was obtained at different cooking stages!
Ibee found that anything under 50% M, would produce the face flush and tingling, heartpounding, shortly followed by that thought "Hmmmm Whats for Dinner?"
But the 40 or 50% M present would get Ibee past the need for sleep. If it was 30% M or less, Ibee would exchange the desire to research further for Sleep!
Ibee will have the results of the more extensive research regarding this topic hopefully within the next week!
Further revelations have been uncovered regarding the long Reflux and full conversion study! There seems to be a time factor included in bringing on phase II of the reaction and the end result!
While Strength of honey is of major concern here, Healthwise, the removal of excess impurities should top the list of reasons for employing this route!
An Average, Run of the mill, Jonez`er would never sit still for the times necessary to wait for the full conversion.
But the bees that have tapped into that reserve of patience in the past, should have no problem!
Peace of the REaction


Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
12-04-02 03:51
No 386000
      Is there any HI still in there...?     

Advice please. Rxn as follows:4g E (tetra'd, extracted STB),4.2g I, 2g new mbrp. (No dh2o yet.) in 500ml rb flask. Topped w/punch ball just in case. Rxn started off nice and slow w/white smoke. Smoke started to get yellow, put it on ice bath for just a sec, went back to white. When slowed way down, put over low heat until white swirling smoke again. When that subsided, uncapped, added 3ml dh2o and heat. Recapped. A little more smoke. When that slowed, added 2 more ml dh2o, recapped, put in crock pot.  Checked after a while. Nice little bubbles coming up through liquid. OH SHIT...sister and husband just pulled into driveway. Took out of crock pot and placed in cold oven to hide.  After a few hours went to put it back into crock pot.The punch balloon was pulled into flask.  Had to cut a big hole in it to remove from flask.  Replaced w/new balloon. Added about 3 more mls dh2o. Left to cook about 10 hrs, so far.  Color is like dark mustard...golden yellow/brown. Very small particles seen in fluid when swirled, no lumps, very little sticks to sides(ie. not sticky goop) OK there any HI left in there? Do I continue to cook? Or am I just boiling to be boiling? Guess I'm not really sure what happenes during the long reflux.  Time is not a problem (unless sis shows back up) Plan to gas after cleaning and basing into naptha.  Any comments on that part?  Please be gentle..This is my third try.  Previous attempts have been "fair" but seem like I had alot of unreacted product. (at least after reading geeze et al on what that 1/2 assed stuff is like)So I need a success story here.
-= ol8dbee =-

You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much rp.
(Hive Bee)
12-04-02 04:10
No 386007
      no water to start??     

Should have added some water before reaction was started, dry starts can affect yields, in swims humble opinion.
It won't hurt anything to run it longer, swim would say run it at least a few more hours, won't hurt a thing and may help, but that is an opinion as well.
If naptha is used post rxn, warm it up prior to basing, a hot dh20 wash of naptha, before rxn solution is added works real well for that.
Good Luck

Iń-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iń Iń!
(Hive Addict)
12-04-02 06:39
No 386052
      Outta the Box!     

I guess ol8dbee is pulling Ibee outta the box before xmas!
That's cool!
Patience as being exhibited is priority.
As Stated, the timing of the phases plays a hugh part!
While utilizing this method, attention must be paid to visuals during PhaseII and will indicate doneness!
The most important visual will be the rise! This will not take place until most of the reactants are the consistancy of bubblegum! There will be on final recreation of HI which will cause the balloon to swell!
It may take hours more for the excess moisture to leave the mixture and allow that final fuller conversion to take place!
Ibee recently pulled a 9 dayer with a day sitting at room temp before putting it back on to finish!
Other pressing matters are preventing the posting of the findings....YET!
The final part that SWIO8B proposes is not a problem!
In Ibee's experience, a dry start has yet to effect yield! Pulling it off before completion does however!
This control is completely within everybees power and it proves worlocks suggestions years ago to GO with a slow CONTROLLED rxn!
Depending on the amount of dh2o added to the last check, this Phase2 conversion may take up to a day to work itself out! PATIENCE!!!
More will follow!
Good On ya BRO!

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
(Hive Bee)
12-04-02 06:47
No 386057
      dry start     

Swims main concern was Free Base Feed being dry started, since STB was used, HCL would be of little concern.
Swim thinks he's really hijacked his own yields when trying to push/pull FB this way in the past, but as always swim may have drawn the wrong conclusions.

Iń-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iń Iń!
(Hive Addict)
12-04-02 08:35
No 386094
      free base feed     

I was under the impression this was not considered freebase using the STB.

SWIHFT has'nt done a P/P in some time now having to much fun with refluxin' but would think a dry start is not the way to go for any method used.

  " c-mere "  

(Hive Addict)
12-04-02 09:15
No 386106
      some results     

after much hard headed debate with himself 'SWIHFT concludes that longer refluxes produces better stronger end results.

tried three different times' first was 5 hrs that showed good come back on the foil and product looked clean ' but SWIHFT could taste the phed that did'nt get carried over to meth also noticed that the yeilds suffered .

next was a 8 hr reflux with better results' yeilds were much better and taste greatly improved and so was the buzz...

third was 24 hrs ''' now for time he thinks 8 to 12 hrs works as well as the 24 hr reflux little difference was noticed and not enough for the extra time it took to make' and the  36 hr cook is still in the works with no results yet but he's thinkin that it may bee the best yet.

just a word about the gups ''' the shit he used to test the above he thought was full of peg it was left overs from cleaning the dirt one last time' now this gup shit turned out to bee pretty clean in the final run of things with not much sign of peg at all.
one thing he tried that was a little different ' he added the noah to the filtered rxn first, then added his np, before he was doing things in reverse np first giving salt a place to go but peg surely follows'' now he's thinking that the peg would have to base in the noah instead of going straight to the np giving the base time to work.

he tried this twice with same results both times fairly clean end product using shit so he thought.

anyone have a thought on this, or is this old news just catching up to SWIHFT?wink

  " c-mere "  

12-04-02 13:37
No 386167
      ol8dbee so thankful     

Yep WAMI, looks like Xmas it is.  But that's not a problem. If past failures have taught the ol8d anything, it's NOT to rush the results.  To have the joyful anticipation crushed, demolished, devastated, vaporized(oh well, you get the picture) by 1/2 baked results has had the ol8d checking into anger management classes.  So I will let the little darlings cook 'til the cows come home...will let you know the results in...uh, let's see...a month or so? Cthul, thanks for the input about the dh20, next time, I'll dampen it up a bit beefore mixing it up.

You can never be too rich, to thin or have too much rp
(Hive Addict)
12-06-02 01:49
No 386653

12345x, I've never tried it but will. 

Hi Horrendous

(Bee of the Month)
12-06-02 16:19
No 386850
      some notes on startups     

WAre noted: "In Ibee's experience, a dry start has yet to effect yield! Pulling it off before completion does however!
This control is completely within everybees power and it proves worlocks suggestions years ago to GO with a slow CONTROLLED rxn!...Depending on the amount of dh2o added to the last check, this Phase2 conversion may take up to a day to work itself out! PATIENCE!!!"

SWIG has done long refluxes two ways now. One way is with a wet start, and the second was with a fairly dry start, the way he did his four-to-six hour reflux cooks. In the latter he would start rather dry, and add water at the start of phase two, relying on visual cues as to when to add water. In the longer reflux, he allowed the cook to proceed to the start of phase two and slowed the reaction with the addition of water, then added even more and let the mother run for thirty five more hours. When it actually completed is anyone's guess, as it was never checked for completeness short of the 36th hour. It was certainly complete at 36 hours. Turned the heat off and as soon as the convection in the flask ended, the red fell like bricks and the fluid was a light yellow in color. Pretty like honey like-you-like-it. Results between the wet start and the dry start reactions were indistinguishable to the tweakers who sampled same, but the differences if any in the batches were likely of such subtlety that the weeks lapse between samples dulled the sensory ability to distinquish between the two. Both seemed to be "as good as it gets." The latter left almost no trace that it was ever in the sucka tube, and no one found any partiuclar need to sample it via injection.  That is good shit, particularly when the  taste testers are not noted for their fear of points.  

Mostly harmless
(Miss High & Mighty)
12-06-02 17:27
No 386873

Have you tried the "lets make HI first"start yet?
As in let it cook for a few,and then add your feed.
If not,no matter,But if so,I would love to hear about this.
If any bee is bored with their rxn`s I urge you to give this a go.I am now of the unqualified oppinion that a 72 hr reflux is not quite that important,but fuck,it wont hurt if you have the timesmileI still recomend a good 30hr+.
If not for the quality of the "Buz",for the ease of extraction and yield.The slower you go,the more you have to show.
In regards to the "buzz" thing,Aint a meth molecule a meth molecule?Just as we believe when talking appearance?
To me this says that it is a hygiene issue(e.g byproducts impurities)That influence the effect.So the answer must be to be as clinical as possible when performing a chemical rxn
And try as hard as possible to act like the proffesionals,
dont skimp,dont be lazy,be patient,be clean,be equipped,and all will be wellsmile.

And that is my little thought for the day.Thank you all for listening.
(Bee of the Month)
12-06-02 19:40
No 386913
      Not yet     

Ballz---not yet. The first long reflux SWIG did he mixed his I and rP and water and let it work until it quit fuming and needed heat to do anything, then added the pseudo. This is about twenty minutes wait, not a long time and not until the flask was clear with HI.

It is on the list of ways to try but he hasn't got there yet, due to his tilting at PEG windmills which he found no longer existed due to a minimal cure prior to extraction.

I concur with the opinion that the issue is yield and purity, and how many of what you have at last is meth and nothing but meth...and potentcy is how many meth molecules you have per puff, snort, unit, or whatever....and that longer sure as hell seems to be equal to stronger for whatever reason...the proof is in the final crystal, and the proof is there after the 30+ hour run.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
12-07-02 00:57
No 387002

> and the fact that high PH meth goes into your brain faster.

That doesnt make sense can u explain that
(Hive Addict)
12-07-02 03:17
No 387019
      Ibee's One Hit Wonder!!!     

You bees are getting Ibee all wound UP!wink
For a very long time now, Ibee has felt like the oddball out! Concerning potency, because his reports seemed so much more far fetched and exaggerated than others reports!
That was in no way meant to be taken as boasting!
He was simply telling it like it is!
Hopefully these validations might convince just one bee that Ibee really is sane!!!
A GoofBall...but a sane one!

Tetra was banned today in Southern Calif!frown

Southern California air quality officials voted Friday to impose the nation's first ban on the most commonly used dry cleaning solvent.

Related stories at
Luckily Ibee has had his hands on the crystal ballz all this time!
Get it while you can!
Other areas have been being researched, much like the original Egull research! But the researchers are just a tiny bit more educated than FumbleBee and StumbleBee were this time last year!!!
Hope ya'll put Extra Heavy Duty Seat Belts on yer X-Mas Wish list this year!tongue
Strap In Early!
Peace of the REaction

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
(Hive Addict)
12-07-02 05:04
No 387037
      Tetra was banned today in Southern Calif!     

tetra is starting to bee SWIHFTS best bud.'  hopefully by the time it says goodbye to everyone something else will take it's place.
2020 is sometime off.... 

SWIHFT' never thought of Ibee as a boaster ' he allways respected Ibee's opinion,and considers Ibee a friend.
It took SWIHFT a while to follow Ibee's directions but never once felt Ibee was leading him down a wrong road.

ok well most of Ibee's post he understood..... 

Post 373777 (not existing)  Post 373780 (not existing) except these post now I think Ibee was on a higher playing field that day........ wink

  " c-mere "  

(Hive Addict)
12-07-02 06:04
No 387049
      still waiting     

damn those 36 hrs baking a cake sure seems like years' SWIHFT has 24 more to go.
lift off should bee around 1:00 am sunday morning.

maybee a good time to go into the woods and look up that 10 point buck I noticed a while back' rut is in full swing so he's got pussy on his mind and he don't think well when pussy is hot and ready hmmmm sounds like me.   cool

  " c-mere "  

(Stoni's sexual toy)
12-07-02 22:53
No 387224
      > damn those 36 hrs baking a cake sure seems ...     

> damn those 36 hrs baking a cake sure seems like years'
> SWIHFT has 24 more to go.
> lift off should bee around 1:00 am sunday morning.

If you can't wait and need something to keep yourself busy why don't you remove 2ml of your refluxing mixture with a pipette and work it up all the way to the final meth hydrochloride? The result will be sub-optimum and it will be lots of unnecessary work but it will keep you busy and the resulting meth will make it easier to wait that long. tongue

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
12-07-02 23:05
No 387228
      i always thought that was cheating!     

wouldn't that sort of impatience 'jinx' the show?
(Hive Addict)
12-07-02 23:27
No 387237
      still waiting.     

8.5 hrs left  '' what year is this anyway?

Osmium, SWIHFT thanks you for the suggestion but this is a kind of mission that he's been putting off now for close to 10 yrs and he feels it's time to complete it since he's this close .

He has other things to do while this time consuming project completes.

Good thing he had some 12 hr cake left' it's making him handle the wait alot better...

  " c-mere "  

(Hive Addict)
12-08-02 02:20
No 387314
      Osmium...How did you know???     

It was day fifteen and how did you guess that that's how Ibee made it that long! was an experiment testing the early reports of a reconversion back to it's original.
It does convert back and Ibee does not recommend doing this unless you like having no hair!
On day seven it converted back to p-fed!
Ibee is sick to death of titrating! Even when he knows the goods are at the end of the Rainbow!
Shhhhhhheeeeesh! What Ibee won't do for the sake of discovery!
More later on this!
For those started as two separate 3g batches! After various stages and testing, both were combined and it looked as though failure was gonna be the final result! He re-energized the HI many times with the addition of both RP and I2, all to no avail!
Then He useed excess h20 which seemed to help!
The water would be sucked up and the mixture hardened faster than normal! The last two additions of h20 were combined with aluminum shavings which seemed to stimulate enough action to get it going again!
More later!
Good On ya SWIHFT!!!

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
(Hive Addict)
12-08-02 03:28
No 387335
      On day seven it converted back to p-fed!     

3hrs:43mins left to take off ' ... warming engines to handle the initial surge of power 'hope the booster rockets don't go foul. 

Thank god there is a point at which it reverts  cause I can see us going for months and years leaving our grandkids the job of attempting to finish the reactions. 

 just a few more years and you'll see how good it is ' now keep that reaction

  " c-mere "  

12-08-02 04:24
No 387350
      some families keep a soup going for centuries     

confuseus say: first step in 300 year reflux is single spark.

um, you guys know how important it is to "age" your gear, don't you?

a minimum of 8 years, for the good stufftongue
(Hive Addict)
12-08-02 07:31
No 387372
      We will Crank No Gear until It's TIME!     

Zib: Top Shelf All The Way!!!
They Don't call it UP for Nuttin...Honey!!!laugh
And No...Ibee don't go thare!!! Just figuratively speakin of course!tongue
Peace of the REaction

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
(Line Monitor)
12-09-02 00:33
No 387601
      Can't resest it any longer.     

I'd hazard to say if you gave everybody the exact amounts of L/G precoursors not one (end product)  would bee the same. If you like your tea strong wouldent you use less h20 or more time and heat. There was a time the long simmer was refered to as the BIKER methiod. Say 3 oz's of E was all a guy had he'd take 3 oz's of I2 and 1 oz of r/p with 3 oz's of water. The word mole wasn't even heard of. With a elect hot plate and some salid oil the heat was just enough to see small bubbles ( somewhere around 160 to 240f) Anywhere from 12 to 16 hours later with periodic check ups all was well. So it makes good sense to give it enough time to do it's thing. Don't ask me what thing means. I personaly don't think a rxn needs to go longer then 12 hours as long as everything is on track. Don't ask me what on track is. HeHecool

Who sayed that
12-09-02 05:56
No 387694
      like so many other phenomenae in this world:     

its a surface area/volume ratio dilemma.

its not that the actual proton donner is moving real slow, and needs 24 hours to do the reduction...its the distance we impose upon the enviornment, for the likely hood of a productive encounter.

the volume of reactants is the distance we impose on the liklihood of productive encounters.

as it is, the rxn is akin to splitting a huge pile of firewood, wherein you throw the split wood back into the pile that needs to bee split.

is there a way to move a small, but steady stream of correctly proportioned reactants thru a heated glass tube; and gathered on the other side?

what would you do differently if the challange was to make a single molecule of meth?

could that bee done in a steady stream?

otherwise, its like doing your taxes, except throwing the finished forms in the "to do" file.

the mass of the rxn contents is a detriment...except for the fact that we haven't figured out a logical alternative.

in zib's fantasy, the ideal macro rxn would bee the sum total accumulation of a steady stream of mini-nano-rxns...sort of like the way a honda civic works...a tiny squirt of reactants at a time, into the 'rxn' vessal..bang!

they're out; next squirt is in.  extremely dry powder works in an atomizer. one of the reactants could bee introduced in provide adequate h2o

guess which one?
(Hive Addict)
12-09-02 06:13
No 387699
      fouled boosters     

well I wanted to respond to the 36 hr test i conducted 'I was up for 3 days before I started this test, I ended up falling asleep  so test actually went 42 hrs ' something went wrong not sure at this moment ,but can't seem to crystalize when gassed acts as if it did'nt make.

I'm sure the gups where clean as well as the percursors.
only thing different was had to use tap h20 instead of dh20
but I don't believe that was the problem unless to much clorine in h20 but that just turns the color, should not affect the reaction ?.
the shit smokes after let sit and dry but it's not the shit  I was looking for.

but not fault of the length of time as it is with the one cooking it.
somehow he fucked something up and he's got to figure what he did..

he can see the shit falling when gassed but never crystalizes, damn shame I was looking forward to a taste but now have to rework it ......shit............

it's been awhile since a failed reaction came knocking at my door , brings back some sad memories...


  " c-mere "  

(Hive Addict)
12-10-02 16:13
No 388105
      Sign Sign...everyware a Sign!     

Especially when refluxing, the distinct visual signs must bee thare, or it's not done! How do ya thing Ibee wound up at a day5 jobbie last year instead of the 1Day that the mindset was set for!
All comes into play in this field! When to Add H20 is a biggie! If too much is added...take a nap, cause you'll need it!
This should be a No-Brainer...don't GO beyond 7 days!!!
You'll end up worse for WARE than IbeeWare Did...because he went thare on purpose...
16 day bubbly 50/50 in the end!
I can't figure odds like that cause thare was a good screwin to bee had by all, The worst part was those ficticiously speaking RearGear Ends!
Okay...SWIHFT! Ibee said to put the blob back on after pouring off the "Imagined Liquid"(to be reconstituded for the next bout).
The only thing lost by working up too early ,mostly will be unreacted and I2,(among hostsof other things not of concern)!
After all it will hang together like tar until it is between 40-50% complete and when anything more than 50% was converted, than calculate the missing RP that was removed from the picture by pre-mature ejaculation!
A rise in the mix is a must! When not babysitting, it's hard to notice which is why the checkpoints must have a preset list of Visuals to note, which will determine the UniqueBlend's degree of completion!
SWIHFT noted some...but not all!(whitesmoke, Paratrooping RP...etc) This tells us that we are nearing the point of completion! Get the final three before working up!
1ĽSMELL...Ya'll Know!!!
(No Fruity or Dogfarts)!
2ĽVisuals: Color & Consistancy...Chewed UP bubblegum like!(ShinyBlack Color...Wait for it to Sweller! TOO WET...LET IT SET!)
3ĽRise in Volume of reactants to at around double of that when originally mixed!
Peace of the REaction

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
(Hive Addict)
12-10-02 17:15
No 388112
      thanks wareami     

I guess I needed a reminder , I was really thinking that the final faze might bee different since a 42 hr cook took place.
SWIHFT had to cook it down to rid the h20 that was left.
after doing this he saw most signs of completion like the bubble gum and turning darker and the white smoke ' he did'nt see the rise he was looking for and not the gold tint that climbs the flask but he thought maybee that had to do with the long reflux.

when cooled it had that "not completed smell" and knew somthing was fouled, Now he's not going to try and work this anymore beecause it was a nano version to start with and he can't justify the ends with the means.

so off the outhouse for more private moments to reflect and  redirect his thougths ' and hopefully start the next one with a clear head and finish it as well.

lots had to do with its failure beecause of lack of sleep 3 days,and he knows he made some errors <brain-dead> in rushing the final faze... big mistake.

thanks wareami, hope santa is good to ibee and the boyz this year.   

  " I love a good shower "  

(Hive Bee)
12-10-02 20:56
No 388166
      no precipitation     

Heres what Swib doesn't get.
Everytime he run a rxn he gets crystals...maybe not meth, but still crystals. (As long as the ephy is clean)
His point is, regardless of the rxn being complete or not, crystals should still form, even if its only unreacted ephy.

To get no crystals doesn't sound right. Swib is pretty sure he could throw dirty I2, and dirty RP into a jar with some halfway clean ephy, piss into the jar. Throw the cap on for 5 minutes, shake it up, and still get back his  mostly unreacted ephy crystals.

Kyoto now!
12-10-02 23:36
No 388203
      good point, buckshot     

rxns that report 'nothing' at the end clean up, are quite peculiar.

could bee a/b confusion...with the baby accidently getting tossed out with the bath water.
or intermediates that don't form crystals. or useless rp?
(Hive Addict)
12-11-02 00:29
No 388221
      you make a good point     

buckshot' I have no idea the reason this happens but on a couple occasions I've had it happened.

I always thought it was due to contaniments from gups or as zib says r/p could bee the problem, truth is I don't know.
as far as the a/b process i don't feel the problem lies  there but thats a guess not fact.

when you mentioned r/p bells rang and could bee something to that.

or just left something in the gups that killed the reaction.

But something happened to cause this not to crystalize when gassed what about moisture in the np that could cause this problem as well right?   

  " tell me facts not bullshit.   "  

(Hive Bee)
12-11-02 01:10
No 388234
      water in NP for gassing     

heck yes moisture in NP and in HCL, could cause this problem handsfull.
 Swim doesn't know what you did with np/product mixture after it was gassed, but just for fun one could wash it with hot dh2o, evap the wash water, and see what "developes", hopefully some good stuff.
 Then the NP could either be titriated or dried over epsoms and re-gassed, if the resulting products looked a little slim.
Or if one is hell bent on gassing, and leaving out a titriation aspect. Add a small volume of hot dh20, shake to warm NP up, basify the water layer to 13 or whatever, just as if a/bing into the NP in the first place. let it sit awhile, sep off the water, dry the NP over epsoms and re-gas with dry HCL.
Many options are possible. Why waste it if its there?

Iń-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iń Iń!
(Hive Addict)
12-11-02 01:54
No 388250
      did that     

what I did was gas then set aside in evape diwh, when it evaped I noticed a waxy sort of hard layer but off white in color not bad just a little .. '

when smoked it did not crack back at all, but the taste was not all that bad and it had leggz  , not sure if it's buzz material'beecause I was already buzzin from from a previous experiment.

no i have'nt trashed it yet ' but it was only a nano expreiment in the first place, wasting material and time trying to save it'' is not on my menu but i'll do something with it, just dont know what ' maybee evape what I can and toss in another cook is probally best idea.
 1 gal sprayer with calcium cholide and muriatic acid is used for gassing so I would think moisture shouldnt bee a problem using the calcium cholide ?

  " tell me facts not bullshit.   "  

(Hive Bee)
12-11-02 01:58
No 388252

 The best route for manufacturing methamphetamine is the direct reduction of the hydroxyl on the L-ephedrine sulfate sidechain in glacial acetic acid using 70% perchloric acid as a promoter and 5% palladium-on-carbon as the catalyst. Vigorous agitation, pressurization with hydrogen to 30psi, and heating to 90 C results in an 85-90% yield of non-racemic methamphetamine, with a 70% yield-to-product. Due to itĺs non-racemic chirality, this meth is stronger than that produced by any other non-stereospecific reduction technique. Typically, this reaction is performed in a 4000ml filter flask placed into a 6gal aluminum pot containing water. The pot is heated on a stirring hotplate and agitation is provided by a stirring bar magnetically coupled through the non-ferrous aluminum. A solution of 1.25 liters of glacial acetic acid, 120ml of 68-72% perchloric acid, 166g(one mole) of L-ephedrine sulfate, and 16g of 5% palladium-on-carbon is pressurized to 20-30psi with hydrogen gas and reduced for 2-3 hours. The catalyst is filtered out, the filtrate made basic with 50% lye solution then extracted with toluene and stripped of solvent,  the base is purified by distillation and crystallized in acetone for the hydrochloride salt. Despite what has been written by others, this reaction does not work with ephedrine hydrochloride because the hydrochloride ion poisons the catalyst, whereas the sulfate ion may actually act as a promoter (I have not tried it, but in theory sulfuric acid may be substituted for perchloric acid as a promoter). This reaction will, however, perform well using any ephedrine base. Due to the requirement for simultaneous heating, stirring, and pressurization, this reaction is limited to 1-3 mole batches. In addition, the palladium-on-carbon catalyst is not reusable without processing...

taken from ziped word doc on rhoiums page

i cook to save the planet!!
12-13-02 10:03
No 389048
      Re: Due to itĺs non-racemic chirality, this meth ...     

Due to itĺs non-racemic chirality, this meth is stronger than that produced by any other non-stereospecific reduction technique.

You'd need to look a while to find a non-stereospecific reduction these days, and while you will produce d-methamphetamine, some would debate that racemic gear is more desirable......regardless of a strength rating measured anywhere during or after the process.
I don't want to seem picky, but since the preferred chiral nature of the gear is dependant on end user taste, and most methods people here are using are producing non racemic product anyway, and in doing so they tend to be geared towards temporary lab settings (read- as little equipment and effort as possible)I fail to see why the method you wrote about is "the best route for manufacturing methamphetamine". Particularly when stated in reference to this thread and it's theme.
Don't feel bad though, I fail to see a lot of other things too no

Oh and Dwarfer, I wonder about you sometimes............can't quite work out where that came from....sly old height shy fella you is. lol.

Regards, Hematite.
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
12-13-02 10:47
No 389062
      I must be getting old     

Reading through these post with the hours adding up as they are makes me wonder. I wonder why Swims 2 hour rxn's have produced top notch gear that for the past 3 years has not been toped in his area. Spoiled brats he has made too.
I wish yall all the luck in the world getting the best product you can no mater how long it takes. I think I would completly switch to the birch before babysitting a flask for even 24 hours, but I just getting old I guess. I want to spend my time outside the lab instead of inside it.. I do admire every one of you and senserly wish the best for each cook....

The end result is directly connected to the effort applied
(Hive Addict)
12-13-02 11:15
No 389065
      me too     

jacked I hear you ' seems it's getting longer and longer with no end in sight.

personally I miss the two hours cooks and would like to see them again .. don't know why that' not possible ' I mean the gear is cleaner then when i did the 2 hrs wammm bammmmmms

and like you said top notch stuff......

right now Im just keeping a open mind learning as I go kind of thing.

then a discission will bee made to stay with short or longer cooks...
rigth now it's shorter cooks  work as well just depends  of your method of cooking i guess... but it's a learning thing ' trying to ways '' like teaching an old dog new tricks....    

  " tell me facts not bullshit.   "  

12-13-02 11:23
No 389067
      Oh yeah!!!     

Ok old man you're challenge is taken up, I'll try the fruits of your labour...repeatedly if need be and by various methods of intake and in amounts that remain unwritten for fear of hive concern over Heme beginning to develop a little meth habit hehe.(plus I don't want to horrify anyone that invents the propaganda about meth that might be reading with a scary real fact that's worse than anything they ever made up)
Bring it on caveboy. muhaahahahah

Just for the record;
Heme restates that his input in this thread still differs from many in that an element of the high I have noted many times in the past from long refluxes in HI is always lacking in gear from every other method, and Heme knows this is not an issue of purity or imagination etc, but rxn specific. Which of course could be an issue of purity specific to one reaction type I spose, but that would then indicate a desirable impurity once more, oh boy. In closing may the record note that Heme has come full circle again and now has empirical evidence to validate his uncertainty.
Actually you know what I reckon......I reckon the relfux rxn under certain conditions produces racemic meth...Simple as that.

Regards, Hematite.
(Bee of the Month)
12-13-02 20:17
No 389141
      On babysitting reactions     

Jacked: A properly established reflux needs no babysitter.

The comment does in fact assume proper equipment and facilities. And no, I wouldn't leave one on the kitchen stove unattended either.  

Mostly harmless
12-13-02 21:16
No 389154
      as long as we're confused:     

hematite, you rascal...i'm pretty sure i know what you're talkin' about. the weird thing is, i could bee exactly wrong!
so i must ask you annoying questions:

this particular quality bees hint at; with you dropping a big hint in the" HI, long reflux only " and not other it heme's experience that the particular 'magic quality' stuff has empirical aspects; like, in a double blind test, all tweek fans would choose this one over the others? Like, its a repeatable, sort of predictable high?

here's where i got confused with your poetry:
the racemic statement.  zib is starting to suspct that most people may actually prefer a mix. he has run a couple double blinds with friends, unbeknownst to them; they preferred the non-recrystalized gear..that was my first shock.
heme? are you suggesting that the long HI reflux gives an oportunity to racemeic meth, and that we always liked it better? but simply didn't know?

i hope this is my last theory on the subject:

could it bee? that in a vry long reflux, long after its done reducing iodoeph, that miniscule amounts of novel pea's are produced? active in microgram doses? so tiny that they will recrystalize with the big boys; unnoticeable; yet a very strong drug in its own right?

or a certain combination of by-products could bee produced in the long haul...nothing we were after...

on the more sorcery-ish side, i'd guess that the super long cook allows one the time to put one's focus into the power object for a longer time; thus imbueing the object with more power.

jacked quite possibly has enough power to imbue an object with 'magic' in 2 hours.

zib is cool with that possibility. was it curbshot, or fudgemonkey, that were able to do it in 20 mins?

i beelive them.        some can move chemicals with their minds.   zib can move blood to his penis with his mind.
(Hive Addict)
12-13-02 22:07
No 389172

clean gear ' and no how will allow you a quicker rxn.
thats how SWIHFT learned a few years ago when ALL HE had to work with was a whistler tea pot a hotplate some 3/4 in hose and some fittings from the plumbing supply store and start cooking..

He knows it can bee done ' and is working it back in his way of doing things ' it's quick and it's good.... bottom line
he's ok with the long reflux ' just time is the factor and he likes in and out much better then 36 hrs waiting for something that can bee made in 2 or less hrs .

but he's from the old school of doing things and has a hard time understanding why the long wait for a little if any difference in end results. 

  " tell me facts not bullshit.   "  

12-13-02 22:52
No 389188
      under pressure = higher temp=faster motion     

equals quicker journey to encounter the desired molecular encounters and exchanges.
also allows higher concentration of HI as liquid.
could also supply the stinklessness.

what if one of those volcanoe-type rxns , instead of coating a bee's ceiling, was forced thru a tiny coil of glasstubing, by the pressure of the rxn gasses?  is there any real point in reacting a large volume of ingrediants? other than convention? and the troubling, sticky surface area of the containment device?

might a tiny bubble in a novel mixture of innert, non-miscable medium suffice as a temporary flask?
might a steady flow of such bubbles in the mix bee circulated thru a narrow, heated artery? with intake manifolds along the way? blowing in an atomized poof of porportioned precursors?

i didn't think so.

but don't bee too surprised if thoughts out of the box create the box of the future!
(Hive Addict)
12-13-02 23:26
No 389205
      damn zib '' try it and let me know; high temp ' ...     

damn zib '' try it and let me know;

high temp ' pressure 'and a close eye for what's taken place can make things happ[en quick....

it's all written in the meth gods bible check for yourself.    wink

  " tell me facts not bullshit.   "  

(Hive Addict)
12-14-02 00:23
No 389225
      Pressure vs Time= NervousBrakeDown :Ľ■     

Jacked: It's great to see thoughts from the old school on this subject! We all know that Cleanliness is next to MethGodliness. This was the first lesson taught to Ibeeware by the LightningGod! Pristeen clean topped the priority list of achievment. From that starting point, a launch pad was formed for further exploration! SWIW didn't have much of a mind for absorbing and retaining most of the advanced Chemistry jargon that gets tossed onto the board, which is why it became necessary to grasp "The MagicChant".
It seems, the more Ibee Chanted, the more enlightened he became toward the virtues of "Patience".
The more patience applied, the more determined Ibee became in understanding a fraction of what the Schooled Elders(chemists) were teaching.
Granted, some of the experimentation in the long reflux area was accidentally stumbled upon!
That launched the inquisition of discovering why this produced a different creature altogether.
Let's not forget...Ibee has been a conniseur since "74".
He was also one that would turn his nose up to White USP in favor of the oldschool P2P EtherRush!
All that changed over the years with the discovery that a half ass homerun rxn with all the impurities was equal to and sometimes better than some trash he's consumed on the streetlevel!
Rhodiums scientific explanations concerning longer cooking times and how this effects the conversion/reduction properties in the HI environment, set the stage for further exploration!
Somehow...I always found it hard to argue with science!
There is without a doubt more time in preparation involved! The trade off in time is worth every second upon first sampling the end result!
Ibee honestly didn't think it was possible to achieve more potency and scoffed at the thought at first until the accidental experiment fell in his lap! This coincided with what he read so for the last several months this has been duplicated over and over!
Once stumbled upon, it's hard to go back!
Peace of the REaction


Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
12-14-02 15:24
No 389438
      It's like this     

Swim is not a scientists, He's a criminal doing high stake crimes against a nation working together to stop him.
He weighs his age against time if discovered and comes up with no scenario to his favor. The more time spent at ground 0 puts him that much more in jeopardy. This is just my reasoning in the mater. This is not the way it started for swim, It was small and personal and there was room for research and discovery along with long hours in the lab. It's went from a hobbie to a serious streamlined business.
 As far as leaving a rxn to go on its on I do it all the time, The push pull pushes and pulls without my watching it anymore, that time is spent getting ready for the final extraction and cleaning up the pill drill, so time is money in most cases, I believe in Swims case Time is Time and the less is better.. People learning to cook for profit should think about this, I'm just trying to enlighten the reality to some wearing blinders through the learning process as Swim did only focussing on a product and not staying out of jail. Someone get this thread back on topic please.   

The end result is directly connected to the effort applied
(Stoni's sexual toy)
12-14-02 16:54
No 389448
      > He was also one that would turn his nose up ...
(Rated as: excellent)

> He was also one that would turn his nose up to White USP
> in favor of the oldschool P2P EtherRush!

Nice example of how 'street users' judge the quality of their 'gear'. Do I get a bodily reaction from the toxic byproducts and other foreign matter like solvent residues? Is the dope coloured like the impure shit I did back in 89, when I still had a tolerance and a gram of peanut butter would last me a week? Is it 'crystal' meth or is it dust-like powder?

Just to remind some people here: the chemical substance 100% meth hydrochloride is a colourless (not 'white!'), odorless crystalline substance with a shitty taste. It doesn't matter how big the crystal 'rocks' are, the finest dust can still be many times purer than the biggest glassy chunks you've ever seen. Crystal size is unimportant and not an indication of quality either.
If your drug differs from this description in any way then it cannot be clean 100% pure meth. Period.

I assume I also know why some people see no difference between their short reactions and the long ones. Because they start the reaction like they are used to do it, by mixing pfed, I2 and rP with a few drops of water wrongly believing that they need to see that irrelevant exothermic push-pull, phase I or II or whatever stuff.
There is a paper on Rhodium's site mentioning 50 or so contaminants in meth produced that way. Which proves what every chemist always knew, that this way of doing it might yield a product that is highly desireable for the average street user, but it's not clean methamphetamine hydrochloride. Same with those that omit the A/B cleanup: your stuff might get off everyone, but those people are not getting off on the meth alone, but on all the other crap that is in there too. Somewhat like those paint huffers that like to ruin their bodies by inhaling toxic solvents.

Whenever I get involved into the discussions on this board my intent is the furthering of knowledge and scientific understanding among the members. That's why I say stuff like above and the following, not to step on anybodys toes:

A successful rP/I2/H2O/long reflux reaction, done with the intent of producing as clean as possible methamphetamine hydrochloride and not the 'gear' or 'chili' called mixture of uncountable substances that can be sold easily and pleases every superstitious moron does NOT depend on the visible signs of 'getting off' like flask fires, vigorous gas production, HI oozing out of plastic bottles etc. I have done such long refluxes myself, e.g. by dissolving the pfed in the required amount of H2O, adding a small amount of the I2 followed by all the rP. No visible reaction. Then I added more I2 through the condenser, and the flask heated up, still no push/pull like behavior and violent exotherms, just gentle self-heating. When finally all the I2 was in after 1 hour or so, and no heat was produced anymore the whole stuff was gradually heated to reflux and left alone for the next 18 hours or so, before being worked up producing a odorless, non-sticky, colourless fine dustlike powder that most morons wouldn't buy if I offered them my 'good shit'.

Sure, you can do it the violent exothermic dry way and end up with a complex mixture of all kinds of stuff containing a considerable amount of meth, and that stuff will probably sell for good money and is fast to complete, especially when people leave out the long ass reflux and the A/B cleanup.

You can shorten the whole reflux business to 2 hours or so, ending up with a mixture containing 75% meth and the rest impurities and unconverted precursor. It might even look the same after workup and cleaning as the real pure chemical methamphetamine hydrochloride, and most people won't be able to tell it apart, because humans can't tell the difference without using tools, just like we can't measure lenghts and distances and other measurements exactly by merely using our senses.

That's why the 2 hour reflux product is still 'gear', 'good shit', 'rocket fuel' or whatever the current name is in your neighborhood. Converting the bulk of the precursor is fast, the conversion of precursor per time ratio (a.k.a. reaction rate) is very fast in the beginning but quickly slows down. People might have a conversion of 40% after one hour, 60% after two, about 75% after 3 etc. But to convert all the precursor into methamphetamine you have to cook for quite some time longer, since the reaction rate is NOT linear!

I can only speak for myself, but when I do such a reaction I want to do it right, convert all my expensive precursors into the desired product and end up with a pure compound with the least amount of contamination possible. Sure, there are easier ways to produce a marketable compound, but that's just not the way I like my drugs.
So do whatever floats your boat. If you can live with the knowledge of not doing your best and consuming impure stuff, fine.
I can't, and won't.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
(Hive Addict)
12-14-02 18:27
No 389467
      Well Said OS     

Jacked: Seeing "It" for the way it is, is most understandable! It's an honor to have the "CaveMan Chronicles" from days of old available, when the descriptions were recorded more from an analytical, exploratory standpoint, then the business aspect of the field!
There wouldn't be to much of a shift in attitude for Ibee and the Kidz to cross that line, but his haphazard footprints while stumbling around are still noticable and he will remain a small fish and in the process do some refinery work!
After all...there is only Ibee and The Kidz to feed and above that would be no win proposition for them!
Time=$$$ there is no mistake!!!
Ibee would love to make the whole state happy, hell for that matter, The whole EastCoast...but the only way he'll devote his time toward giving back, is by staying safe and working on new developements!
Had the Caveman and others not made this an early priority, it's unlikely we'd have progressed this far!
So consider all the work done on Ibee's end as carrying the torch and pioneering against the opposition!
Most know that validity and credibilty emminate from this if and when time can be set aside for personal business...the head stash is worth the effort!
Os: Very well put! The first clear crystals were thought to be bogus imposters...because after all, the good stuff was white, right!!! WRONG!!!
Ibee sees clearly through his evap plate and that confirms his degree of doneness....
We don't need no stinkin machines!
Os also deserves credit in this area of explaining the long reflux and what takes place with a complete reduction!
This post Post 381097 (wareami: "iodo...", Stimulants) explains what will be had when you GO after what you want!

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
12-16-02 06:34
No 389897

thank you wareami, you said all that without disrespect or assuming things... I think there is a thread were cigarette smoke has about 20 or so contaminates that in concentration would kill you. The DEA says my shit is some of the most potent shit they have ran across in this area. I take the FBI's lab work over anyones here, after all theres are the one they hang you by.. No hard feelings to anyone in this thread after all it's just text in a box, nothing to live or die about.

The end result is directly connected to the effort applied
(Hive Addict)
12-16-02 07:22
No 389912
      Burning Bridges and Foot Stomping!     

Jacked: It's hard enough when describing the pioneering of any new way without stepping on a toe or two, especially the Toes of the teacher that laid the groundwork. Others may choose their words less wisely!
Ibee gives more thought to this than it would appear at first glance!
This subject is the stuff that thin ice and eggshells is made of!
Therefore there is a thin line that exists!
The refinement will continue, but as a tribute to the elders that laid the initial footwork. Not out of disrespect!
After all...the mindset was instilled by the preaching of one single word "Patience"! And from there, the torch gets passed down to others as "Stop Settling for Less".
It was known when that word Patience was taught to the Kidz, that the Ancient Alchemist Deluxe would never settle for less!
Ibee would never question the potency of Jacked's best as his techniques have been refined and revealed on more than one occassion!
Here's hoping the FBI don't get a load of Ibee's Shit!!!
Much Respect Man!
Peace of the REaction

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
(Hive Bee)
12-22-02 17:02
No 391733
      the only thing resulting ....     

the only thing resulting from 72 hr cooks
is yeilds man yeilds.

if you have an a/b routeen that yeilds pure white shards
the only reason to boil in 57% acid "no darkness at all"
for 72 hrs is 90% comeback.
thats the only reason the old timers did it.

these days people are much younger
they realy are......

and the young are impatint......

and motels are good only till the maid
wants to come in and service the room.

its checkout time man.

there aint no iodioephed in your shit.
hell you cant even get it off the walls of the flask.

and if theres so much as 1 part in 20 of phudo
in your shit youll now it as soon as you inhale.
eyes closed.......

if you can improve your shit with acetone washes,
or alcohol/acetone recristalazation.
you dont have your methiod down.

or you have very poor reagents "Rp,E,I"
to begin with.

did you know if you take a dremal with the little
cut off wheel.attached....
and while holding the wheel around 10 degs from paralell
to the striker surface.
you can with one sweep remove the rp leaving the paper
smooth almost like it never had any rp on it.
just do it over a coffie can.
to catch the rp.

realy one swipe takes no more then 1 sec.
and you can prossess a whole box in less then 5 mins

and the lack of paper ,etc  in the rp in the can.
and even more the speed and compleatness
at which the rp comes off the paper dry!
is realy amazing.

and for some strange reason the rp never catches on fire

but the trick is holding the wheel as flat as posable
to the surface of the matchbook.
just like sharping a knife blade with those things
works way better if the wheel is almost parrall to the face of the blade. 
(Hive Bee)
12-22-02 18:23
No 391751
      Re: if you can improve your shit with acetone ...     

if you can improve your shit with acetone washes,
or alcohol/acetone recristalazation.
you dont have your methiod down.

swims method will never be "down"
there is always a better way
but doesn't see why all the 'gods'
would ever leave things these things out
despite there perfect reagents
and their massive skills

Iń-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iń Iń!
12-23-02 01:23
No 391838
      agree and disagree w/1234     

w/ the yield issue...mostly i agree. a good recovery act will come up w/ the best, sans the crap...and it seems pretty obvious when it is encountered.  if its meth, no one will ask how it was produced.

but the grinding wheel mbrp thing is ten times slower than other methods.
(biz posted on grinding wheel; quite excited, couple years ago. )
(Hive Addict)
12-23-02 01:42
No 391843
      90% returns?     

In Re:

"the only reason to boil in 57% acid "no darkness at all" for 72 hrs is 90% comeback."

No disrespect to you knowledgeable 12345x but 90% returns?

Someone was explaining it to me recently (concerning the varying molar weight between pseudo and meth.)
I think it was Geezmeister.

Anyway, isn't 82+% the maximum yield conceivable in terms of complete conversion and return?

Swis has hit 80% returns with a 12 hr dream. 70-75% on the 1st pull and the remainder by allowing the A/B container to sit for a week.

If I'm wrong my apologies...
(Bear With Me)
12-23-02 02:34
No 391864

Someone was explaining it to me recently (concerning the varying molar weight between pseudo and meth.)
I think it was Geezmeister.

Anyway, isn't 82+% the maximum yield conceivable in terms of complete conversion and return?

It's more like 90.31716%, weight/weight, if the mol/mol yield is 100%.  

Pseudo/ephedrine MW FB = 165.2346

Methamphetamine MW FB = 149.2352

The difference in the two would be 15.9994, which, not by coincidence, happens to be the atomic weight of oxygen(though in real life you would find oxygen in a diatomic form (abbreviated O2 ); this is a good way to remember these diatomic molecules: BrINCl HOF (pronounced "Brinkle hof")). 

Oxygen is removed from the pseudo/ephedrine (what chemists call a reduction) via HI, which forms the products of methamphetamine, I2, and water (this take two pseduo -> meth reductions, to get the two oxygens needed in H2O). 

The iodine, in turn, cycles back into HI due to the rP, and the process goes on until completion, or until you wake up from your dreams, and realize that those dreams could get you incarcerated.



Fuck you fucker. Fuck you fucker. Fuck you fucker. Fuck you fucker. Fuck you fucker!
(Hive Addict)
12-23-02 11:55
No 391959
      All due respect!!!     

The stated misinterpretation that the only thing recoverable and advantageous in doing a long reflux is the yield recovered, is misinforming at it's finest! And these misinterpretations are the root causes that have lead most down the wrong path all along!
Now keep in mind that no disrespect is intended here!
Hear Ibee out!
What is the definition of yield and what precisely does that yield consist of! Ibee has had no problem recovering as close to 100% percent yields as scientifically possible!
How much of that has been desirable product??? 100% Who defines desirable product??? An NMR or the User on the street???
The mentor that Ibee followed down this path will tell it like it is, himself...His shit came back from a fallen associate as 96% according the the man. How this was tested and any exaggerations would most assuredly fall on the shoulders of those that spew the same fuckin propaganda as the ones who want to stamp it out and put your ass behind bars for life for corrupting society!!! So in my mind it doesn't carry as much weight as a scientific UNBIASED assessment of the purity!
The cook times that Ibee has seen spewed onto this board as a method of obtaining goods does not jive with the cook times it took to cook a pound back in the day using P2P and as an amusement and an effort to test the methods being discussed here....Ibee did as was instructed and soon discovered he fell short.
That mentor that was mentioned preached patience and this thread wouldn't exist if he hadn't!
His guidance and the seemingly reluctant guidance of schooled chemists on this site were enough to prove PROOF positive what this threads espouses as a general theme! PURITY!!! You can argue it until your blue in the face!
The Many variations speak for themselves and Ibee for one has been accused all along as being one that boasts the absurd while each step of the way let on as to how it could be performed to obtain what was being obtained in this circle!
Had most taken the cotton out of their ears and stuck it in their mouths, they'd have had the openmindedness to follow along!
How fuckin embarrasing is it to tell everybee your getting 90-95% return at 85-90% purity??? Knowing you'll be laughed at and never bee taken serious???
Well read the archives and you'll know what I have contended with and I'm still here telling each and every one to stop selling out! Quit selling yourselves short! Quit settling for less!

What adds insult to injury here is that most will find that the best feed can be obtained by employing a fifteen minute step that I tried to emphasize in most of the 950 posts I've made here!
The only encryption existed in the skeptics minds(or the oppositions that tryed to keep it from being employed that had full access to this board and fought tooth and nail at derailing it!!)
I'm right now...I was right before and I'll be right again as long as I decide that the wrongs need to be exposed!
High Horse??? You're GodDamn right!!! I earned this saddle..blood sweat and tears!
Please weight out those Yeild facts before spewing them out as verbatim!
If i start out with one pill...60mg pfed 2.5mg antihistamine plus an indeterminate amount of binders/encapsulators/denaturants...and come back holding 60mg of pure pfed...
What are my chances of of coming back with less than what I started with after rxn using LG reactants? That is not determined by what went in! It's determined by how well you know the conversion process! Sure I'll get 100% percent what?????
20meth80pfed 30meth70pfed.....etc.... all determined by the ratio of the reactants and catalysts(dh20)....PLUS THE AMOUNT of time given, added to that the temp required based on the ratio...and the list goes on!
The whole point of this post???
It's not about's about potency(PURITY)...
Most only associate purity with what's been made available...
Short cooks=impurities(which most identify with as being GOOD SHIT) + Meth =100% return
Long Refux=less impurities....more meth!
If some think Ibee is outta LINE here....THINK AGAIN!
Try it before you bye it!

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
(Miss High & Mighty)
12-23-02 15:34
No 391996

Far out Ware,you realy let go then didnt ya?

What are you advocating?The tetra wash,the long reflux,
the milder cook?
Sorry man,I know this is as straight forward as you get,
but to me this post is more cryptic then all the others of yours that Ive read.

Who are you letting go at in particular,and what has got you so fired up?
I feel this would help me clarify the intention behind your post.

Take it easy bro,I dont like to see ya like this.
(Bee of the Month)
12-23-02 21:43
No 392114
      Geezmeister weighs in with Waretfami     

Geez joins Ware on the point, and to put it simply, there is no secret to the potentcy of meth. There has never been a secret about it. It has been posted since I first read a post about making meth, dissatisfied with the process I learned first hand from a decent cook.

Ware and Geez have both been at it long enough to have learned that pure ingredients and good reagents determine the final product. If you want the best meth, the most potent meth--and like Ware I agree that we are not speaking about buzz or shooting sparks or faces in the trees, voices in the wind, people outside the window, sore jaws from gritting your teeth, or black helicopters. We are taking about pure meth. It gets that good, it does not get better.

Long wet reflux, adding the slurried pseudo and red phos and mixing well, adding the I2 in small increments until it is absorbed with doing much more than just giving up a little heat, and when it has all settled down nicely and is a very wet fluid cool mass, bringing it up to heat slowly in an oil bath with a condenser running and letting it a go a day or so.

I know a number of other ways to do this reaction. I can tailor a cook for the taste of an individual and his method of administration. That is not what the thread is about. The thread is about potentcy, and potentcy and purity are the same thing.

Osmium has given this information to the blind and deaf among us, myself included, before. You have to want to learn to read and listen. He has said-- over and over-- the same thing, the same sequence, the same time, the same method. It is simple. Anyone can do it if you have the patience to do it the way the chemist said it ought to be done. And do it by the book.

Osmium, my thanks for putting up with us down here in Comedy Central. I know having to deal with us is like being a lawyer dealing with a 17 year old juvie dropout who is at the height of his lifelong intelligence and doesn't need some cracker in a blue suit and damn striped tie telling him shit....Sometimes you get through. You did this time. At least here. Thanks.

Patience pays. Boy, does it ever pay.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
12-24-02 06:49
No 392312
      Jacked UP=Good Shyte     

Apologies to all that may have been lost in the WAKE of my dust and pent UP frustrations!
Jacked is that mentor that I speak HIGHly of! If it weren't for his kindness and patience and expertise in this feild of clandestine chemistry, I don't think I could have lasted this long or learned so much!
Osmium's help in translating this information regarding the long reflux, from a scientific standpoint is greatly appreciated, although his manner of delivery and skills in public relation leave much to be desired! IMHO
He has an excellentrating post in this thread and I was offended by his closing remark! I saw it as a slap in the face toward the likes of Jacked and other elders that have worked hard at helping to build this database of knowledge!
But that's just me! I wish Osmium would readdress this thread to clear up any misunderstanding.
I knew instantly what Jacked was getting at when he replyed to this thread! Hence my following posts at trying to clear up any misunderstanding!
This inspired my next post in the sequence that stated, "Much thought must be given to how we word things if we are to show proper respect where it is due!" Hence the walking on eggshells statement.
I'm not perfect and my writing skills aren't the best. This might contribute to the added time it takes for me to throw these posts together! Something that might take the average individual 15 min to slap together, usually takes me 2 hours! And much of that time is spent pacing and thinking and trying to carefully choose my words that will convey what it is I want to say here! And much of the thought and consideration surrounds getting my point across in a non-offending way!
The variances in rxn methods being discussed here is such that it leaves room, for the applicator of these principals, to do what is necessary at obtaining their very best!
Those Old timers and elders that have been applying these principals to the varying degrees, for years, have made it a science and continue to refine. Their trade skills leave NO ROOM for anyone of us to step in and say "You're Doing it all wrong".
We can speculate all day long about the quality of what they produce! Unless you bioassay it first hand, you are stepping out of bounds when you claim it to be less than what they report it to bee!
The unheard of yields and quality that Ibee and Wingnutz stumbled upon, once reported, were the cause of many`a raised eyebrow...and the subsequent debates! Those that would rather argue their points of "Impossibility" and "skeptisism", held me back from further detailing these finding and procedures, because I was too busy trying to protect my credibility...nah fuck that...I was trying to establish some! But that was only because when I keep stumbling on areas that show promise, I need those that want to benefit to help investigate it further and help me out in these processes! Many here have helped and for that I am Grateful! And in other areas of research, I've demonstated that I am fully capable of carrying the ball myself, if that need arrises! Well that's all well and good, but when it comes down to it, Ibee is responsible and still stands behind every word! Most of what qualified me and my seat here, surrounded the teachings of Jacked's and Worlock's contributions! Their were many others that provided guidance in certain areas but the footwork was applied based on the groudwork that they layed before us all! All of you DO-Bees know how painstaking that necessary footwork is and you all demonstrate how much work was poured into with your contributions! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that!
Had I followed Jacked's initial advice, I'd have focused mainly on plowing ahead and paying less attention to the "text in a box"
It was never my intent to offend anyone here by saying that if they didn't follow the longreflux method, their gear would be substandard!
I am however trying to dispell a myth that a fast cook will lead the seeker to the gold!
Ibee recalls Curby's original nano and it stated at the end that it wouldn't be the best, but it would get the newbees feet wet! Reading beteen the lines is a must and the better the reader is at intuition the better his chances of success!
One common mistake made when anyone attempts to enter a foriegn field of education, is trying to do eveything by the letter and to try and do it perfectly! All this does is leave the door to the necessary variations closed!
Ibee knows! He tried fifteen times and failed fifteen times initially! And he did everything as described and was still left erroneously wondering..."Ware'd I go wrong?"
Well first off...too many variables exist to follow things to the letter! And much is left to the interpretation of the reader! This will never change!!! Working on "reading between the lines" is essential here, especially when dealing with information that can have an adverse effect due to it's controversial context! This will help those when they reach the forks in the road of application decide the best varible to apply!

Unfortunately, Most here and especially the newbees do not know the THE SIGNS of completion!
It's also unfortunate that most take what they know on the road and make it a business without caring about "The End Result".
Jacked is one that fits in neither of the above two categories. Why???? He's demonstrated in contributions here the steps taken in refining the HI/RP and shared his learning experiences freely! I have nothing but respect for that man as I'm sure that most here do as well!

Ballz:Okay...I have to admit...Wareami stepping out of character like that is enough to make most heads spin! I dug UP the Old Ware to help undecypher all that smooth-talk for those that grew accustom to the insanity commonly exhibited from this corner of the uni-vers-E-tile!
Ibee is simply advocating the need to get your precursors and feed as Pristeen Clean as possible!
ĽThe E-Gull Works still on most formulations. The drymatrix is a bitch anyway ya look at it! Ibee avoids suggesting the drymatrix because of the added time and the tetra will not get all the inactives away from the p-fed!
Use whatever method of extraction works best for you!
The waterless A/B and the STR82B are good canidates as well!
A pre-tetra wash is recommended on every formulation regardless of the extraction method! It can only help and it doesn't hurt a bit! Some can even apply an acetone rinse as a final cleaning step!
It's very important to dry everything completely before proceeding onto the next steps in extraction.
ĽClean and dry all precursors to the best of your ability!
Stomp dry your I2 from tinc! There will still be traces of contaminants and hcl attached to the crystals if still moist from a fresh extraction/sublimation.
Make sure the RP is powderdry and clean of all contaminants if using rerun RP! With MBRP, all glue must be washed will interfere with the rxn! Run through a fine sieve strainer to powder! Surface area plays a big part! This will help ensure that the glue isn't present.
Paper has weight...adjust ratio if the scraping was sloppy and the RP has trace amounts of paper!
Use LabGrade if possible!
ĽA long wet reflux is recommended. The reduction process as we all know is time sensitive. The removal or oxidation of any side-rxns and by-products(impurities) will occur if given the proper time! Patience is the Key!
An Important note here: A fully converted product, brought to completion will reverse and convert back to p-fed! This happened to ibee on day six! So watch for the signs of completion and don't go beyond that!
After day went to day 16 before a half-ass reconversion took place! The Kidz were not happy campers! But it was a necessary learning experience and experiment to help others avoid making that mistake!
Geez: Thank You for your continued support in making these newest discoveries available to all! And also for explaining things better that Ibee! He doesn't know what he'd do without ya!
Jacked: Your still the best man! Keep UP the good work!
Peace of the REaction

Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
12-24-02 17:28
No 392446

(just kidding, wareami!)

but what's up with this re-conversion to pseudo-eph after meth happens?

any other verifications of this phenomenae?
(Miss High & Mighty)
12-24-02 18:21
No 392461

Thanks for the thorough explanation.
I hope you dont think I was doubting your words.Nah,just didnt get what youwhere saying is all.
I agree with what you say.
I feel I have played a part in the current trend swing toward the long reflux,mainly due to the many hours I prsonally have dedicated to the whole
"hydrogen Iodide "campaign.
Shit,I wish we spoke those two words more often,and stopped worrying about phosphorus and iodine and ratios and
time constraints,and cleanng pills.
For this is where the chemistry fundementals lie.
This is the reason I enjoyed 12345x`s threads so much.
Because he challenged these princables in a semi-covincing way.And that no-one was realy shure enough to shoot him down
straight up,like they have recently with royal-blue.
I am extremely chemistry illiterate,but foolowing my basic philosophies of life,I trust in laws which are so well grounded.

Anyho,Cheers for your thoughts and taking the time to express them in an easy-to-ballz-understanding way.

But as far as that reverse conversion thing is concerned,
I think you have some explaining to do?????????

I dont believe this for a second.
12-25-02 10:31
No 392664
      Does one acquire pure isomer after a reflux in a ...     

Does one acquire pure isomer after a reflux in a acidic solution? HI is a strong acid is it not? It has been said in the past that a slight reflux of the aforementioned propylamines in a halogenic acid has resulted in a raceimization of the amine. Generally one would have to consider that a gentler reflux would be a little less harsh on the alpha carbon thus longer reaction times. Can't help but notice that people are still arguing whether the RP/I method produces a raceimic mix. Like einstein says it is all relative, possibly.
(Chief Bee)
12-25-02 23:23
No 392810
      Regardless of what you are doing to a racemic ...     

Regardless of what you are doing to a racemic mixture you will not transform it into a single optical isomer. The laws of chemistry unfortunately always strive towards racemates, and to separate the two, you have to more or less sort the molecules (by taking advantage of the different solubilities of the tartaric acid salt of the amines for example), you cannot force it to become enantiomerically pure.

Acid alone won't change the orientation of the alpha carbon of methamphetamine (a nickel catalyst would be needed for that), your product will always have the same orientation as your starting material. Acid can turn pseudoephedrine to a mixture of ephedrine or pseudoephedrine by scrambling the orientation of the OH group, but there is little use in doing that. 
12-27-02 08:06
No 393217
      85 to 90% yields?     

I'm really skeptical about these yield reports. Are you being honest, or just throwing in 20 or 30 percentage points because you're afraid you'll look like a dumbass otherwise?

Now Phlegm realizes he's not the best cook out there, but he's done about 150 of them and they work everytime. When he used to do 100-250g reactions with the 24hr reflux at 180F he would typically get a wt/wt yield return on the 1st pull of 65% when using good chemicals. 55% when using less than optimal chemicals. Once he did two identical  flasks side by side - one for 24hrs and the other for 50hrs. His yields were 55% and 62% respectively. SWIP has never really found a big yield increase beyond 16hrs.

Currently Phlegm favors a slow (about 2.5hrs) and  controlled climb to 250F and then refluxing at 250-260F for 3 to 4 hours to achieve the same yields I would get for the long refluxes described above. I realize that most hivers shit when any temp above 180F is mentioned, and scream about aziridines, but the quality of my high temp gear is at least as good as the low temp version. I believe also that at Rhodium's site is a paper indicating that the aziridines are converted to meth after 5hrs anyway.

SWIP doesn't have a patience problem or anything with doing the 24hr+ thing; just that in his hands, anyway, there's not much advantage to it.
12-27-02 09:46
No 393231
      If memory serves right one impurity found in Rp/I ...     

If memory serves right one impurity found in Rp/I dope is P2P.

Acid can turn pseudoephedrine to a mixture of ephedrine or pseudoephedrine by scrambling the orientation of the OH group, but there is little use in doing that.

Intriguining in itself is why indeed one isomer is highly hydrophobic and the other is hygroscopic. Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd and one may be able to play on these properties. One has to wonder if indeed the OH group is subtly donating a H+ to the amine group. It would account for the l eph activity as also the l methacathinone activity since in both cases the Oxygen has slightly more than a single bond between it and its carbon. That is if the hydroxyl shares a proton with the amine.

I do know that the tyramine molecule is quite zwitterionic with dry powder having high static moments. Many times the compound will not even come off the spatula without force.

The pKa is quite different between a benzylic hydroxyl and a phenolic hydroxyl this is apparent.

It is just too intriguing that the differences between two so similar materials can have such extremely different charechteristics.

(Bee of the Month)
12-30-02 17:41
No 394197
      Yields also depend on technique     

Pleghm: The yield figures you describe are familiar. Most cooks start as low as forty percent yields and work up. Geez ran into "walls" at fifty percent, at sixty, at sixty seven...etc...Its not the synth and its not that refluxing doesn't increase yield. Low yield often relates to poor technique. The care and patience with which you extract the synthesized methamphetamine from the reaction fluid...or lack of it...can ruin an otherwise excellent yield.

You leave meth behind at every sloppy or hurried step in the extraction process. Slow down, be careful, give it time, do it right the first time. Improve your post reaction extraction technique and yield will improve. Simple things like not using coffee filters, drying solvents, using as few containers as you can get by with using, watching spills, giving things time to happen, and saving all the fluids in case of an oversight can make a lot of difference in yields.

The yield from the long reflux was just a bonus. The quality and cleanliness of the product was more important than the yield. When you get them both, you have to be doing something right.

No, the yields are not made up. They are real, and they are attainable. You just have to pay attention and keep an eye out for every yield stealer you can eliminate. 

Mostly harmless
01-04-03 04:11
No 395249
      higher temp, shorter time is really what I meant     

Geezmeister, this response to your comments is probably a time waste cosidering that this thread is apparently dead or dying. But, what the fuck. Firstly, I put a lot of stock in your thoughts on any subject. As Phlegm sees it, your technical knowledge as well as your legal expertise makes you a major asset for the hive. Also, I don't mean any lack of respect towards you in any of my comments.

Phlegm has a practicle laboratory backgound from 15 years working as a technician in cell biology oriented research labs at major universities. Believe me, in order to do  this type of work one developes high degrees of patience and perseverence, as well as a set of skilled hands. Plus, you either have a knack for it, or you don't. What I'm saying is that I know how to do this shit well, and that's how I do do it. This is why I don't believe these people and their yield claims. I mean look, we all know that the maximum return attainable is 92% meth-Hcl from pseudoephedrine-Hcl. You then are going to suffer mechanical losses of at least 10%, which, right off the bat, puts your real world maximum attainable return somewhere around 83%. Then, subtract from that the fact that nobody ever has a reaction that goes to completion. Phlegm thinks that anyone believing that they are going to get a 75% return is being very optimistic!
I should also point out that my personal figures are calculated from the first pull only. Subsequent pulls and the acetone catch are not included. So, I probably do somewhat better than 55 - 65%.

But my original reply was evidently worded poorly because all this shit I just talked about wasn't intended to be my main fucking thrust! My main point was to ask why people do all these long, long incubations when the same results can be had in 5 or 6 hours? A 6 hour reaction means a reduction of prime "ain't no way you're gonna get ot of this shit mess if the Nazi SS pigs show up" exposure time of anywhere from 20 to 40 or more hours! Now, since a chemical Rx roughly doubles or even triples its rate for every 18 degree F temperature increase, it's not hard to see that 4 minutes at 250F might be the equivalent of 1 hour at 180F. As for the quality, I maintain that the high temp shit is at least as good as the 180F variety. Rhodium's site has a paper in which the aziridines were monitored during the reaction (FSI 76(1995)97-114). Early on aziridines were the major constituent of the mix, the peak being even larger than the as yet unreacted ephederine. This azirdine peak diminished as the reaction went on and completely disappeared after 5 hours of reflux. This makes me wonder if the formation of aziridines isn't a way overrated concern.
(Chief Bee)
01-04-03 04:58
No 395262
      Have you invented yet another non-metric unit?     

I mean look, we all know that the maximum return attainable is 92% meth-Hcl from pseudoephedrine-Hcl.

May I just interject a question here? Is it universally assumed that "yields" in this forum follows a separate standard than all the others, in that the weight yield is calculated rather than the molar yield?

So if someone here gets a molar yield of 80% when reducing Pseudoephedrine.HCl to Meth.HCl, that is a 0.80*0.92 => 73.6% Stimulants forum yield? And with the same 80% molar yield, but instead starting with Pseudoephedrine freebase and ending up with Meth freebase, the Stimulants forum yield will be 72.2% (as the maximum weight yield of meth freebase from pseudoephedrine freebase is 149.2/165.2 = 90.3%)?

Is this protocol always followed here, or does it change from time to time without the poster specifying which "kind" of yield was used? Myself, I never use anything else than molar yield, and I assume that there are others here never using anything else than weight yield, so to really know what people are talking about here, one would have to look up the user in a table to see what yield standards he is usually using (or to be on the safe side, hope that all the necessary data was included in the post, and then perform all the calculations myself?).

Oh well, at least we speak english everyone... crazy

(Stoni's sexual toy)
01-04-03 04:59
No 395263
      > Believe me, in order to do this type of...     

> Believe me, in order to do  this type of work one
> developes high degrees of patience and perseverence, as
> well as a set of skilled hands.

Strange, my first rP/I2 reduction worked fine the very first time, and the end product was snow white (since I did the A/B workup and actually understood it).
Don't make it more complicated than it really is. This reaction is a classical example for a very simple reaction. Every chemistry student has to perform more complicated ones after only two or three weeks into the practical org. chem. lab class.
Common sense applies, even though many people here don't like to hear that.

> nobody ever has a reaction that goes to completion

Why not?

> I should also point out that my personal figures are calculated from the first pull only.

Why do meth cooks always process every extraction separately? Can't wait five more minutes to do them all together? Yields certainly won't come close to the theoretical maximum with that kind of workup procedures!

> My main point was to ask why people do all these long, long
> incubations when the same results can be had in 5 or 6 hours?

Because many people have finally realised that the end result is NOT the same.

> it's not hard to see that 4 minutes at 250F might be the
> equivalent of 1 hour at 180F.

Guess why your grandma doesn't heat the apple pie for 2 mins at 500░C, or a whole afternoon at 80░C. Because that rule of thumb is a simplification which is helpful at guesstimating, but doesn't tell the whole story.
But I kinda agree, when I reflux something then it means heating to boiling, which happens to be around 125░C with strong HI.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
01-13-03 05:39
No 397686
      Rhodium, I doubt that many people at the hive...     

Rhodium, I doubt that many people at the hive calculate their yields on a molar basis. That is why I did it on a weight basis.

Osmium, on the first issue I thought Geez was questioning my competency. My first HI/RP attempt worked very well also.

If you maintain that here is a difference between 180F dope and 260F dope, just exactly what is that difference?

Yes, you are correct about the reflux requiring a boil. My mistake. So, I assume you incubate your reactions at 180F for eons rather than refluxing?
01-13-03 05:50
No 397688
      Whoops, forgot a couple things, Os.     

Whoops, forgot a couple things, Os. I only count the first pull because I get the vast vast majority then. I could wait 5 miutes, but for me that doesn't make sense since if I let it sit around a few days I get more on second pulls than if I don't.

Tell me, do your rx's go to completion? Do you think most hivers' go to completion?
(The Abyss)
01-13-03 07:12
No 397711
      zib seconds phlegm's sentiment:     

swiz recently dreamt of a hotter temp; was shy previously to get past about 190F.

for an experiment, swiz let a 12gm (sudo) 8gm (mbrp) 15 gm( lgI2) go to 240 f 

took 3 hrs to get there; under slight pressure; stayed there for 6 more hours; let it coast back down

this was in 500 ml rb in oil bath

i mention the amt. of reactants, and the size flask beecause it surely must matter in terms of how long to reflux.

also, the above dream was carried out with less than 3 drops dh2o/gm sudo

yield and quality out of this world.

this was complete.

furtharmore, swiz dreamt of accidently taking the ph to one in the final part of a/b

not sure why the myth persists, but swiz claims again, that no harm will come of it.
(on the way to ph 6, swiz got hung up at ph8, after endless decided to evap a bit of the aqueous layer at that ph...sure enough, meth was left in the dish; and very clean as it was. the only extra shit the excess hcl caused was excess hcl! piece of cake to remove beefore inhaling its vapours)
(Hive Addict)
01-13-03 10:50
No 397734
      At whatever yield %age     

Everyone is missing the point when they keep derailing this thread back to a yield thing!
Ibee considers himself to bee the King Of Spacedope, mainly because that was ware his dope dropped him off, in the early daze of learning to cook. His school of thought was fashioned after that which was learned at the time. Fast violent reactions and when things slowed, he'd burn the crust on the apple pie, for good measure. Ibee is also highly sensitive to blackhelicoptors, branchpeeple, and other peripheral stalkers. This type dope brought him to dangerously close to the doorsteps of the asyllum on more than one occassion! Some may argue, sleep deprivation or "you did too much". Well Ibee always does too much and usually in the amount that will last between 18-24 hours! It can't be blamed on sleep deprivation when 30 minutes into the buzz, the neighbors come home to find poor Ibee lying face down on his lawn waiting for them to take him away. Those, my friend, are the dreams that nightmares are of! And the characters in those nightmares all sport giant butterfly nets! Ask Dwarfer about Ibee's nervegas incidentwink. The truth be known...Those are impurities and it's pointless to argue with an expert! Geez helped to confirm the reasons why those early days went the way they did! ShootingStar Peripheral Vision and other audio visual hallucinations. That's Getting Fryed, not getting high! High cooking temps were the cause and Ibee can duplicate that dope anytime. Just as he duplicates the Dope that he consumes without incident! Some bees can handle that spacedope, just as Geez pointed out, "He can tailor the cook to the users preference! Some bees think that's the Shite and associate that teeth clenching, adrenalin pumping, "their out to get me dope", as beeing topnotch gear! Fuck...the bodyaches and musclecramping and sore jaws oughta tell bees something ain't right! Ibee regularly enjoys getting blasted without all those side-effects today and has now for the better part of a year! What's different now? Cooking to completion with TIME not HEAT! Ibee can yank two identical looking apple pies outta the oven...One that's completely cooked throughout and one that's raw in the middle. All with heat! The raw one that looks done is made to look done in 15minutes. The one that's completely cooked takes an hour at lower temp! If Ibee were to let the raw one cook at the same temp for the time necessary to cook the insides completely, He have Burnt pie and that's just what he is when ingesting BURNT Dope. Fryed to a frazzle!
Impurities need room to be cooked off, slowly, deliberately. It takes time to create them based on the concentration of HI present. Those side reations also need time to reach an equilibrium and be recycled back out!
What most think is complete reduction, isn't complete until those sides are dealt with by allowing them to cook off! This is the challenge that is being presented. Ibee knows it...Geez, Os, and Rhodium know it. And the HighYield factor that has nothing to do with this thread...? That's the bonus you'll receive in the end for your patience and the ability to follow good, orderly, direction! And that's word UP!
As for the reconversion, cook steady until day seven and work it up if what ole ware says seems far fetched! Ibee sacrificed two 3g rxns to this scenario already. The first happened by accident because it wasn't tended to in time. The second was deliberately sacrificed as a confirmation tool. Half ass dope(trashed after a single bio) resulted from both batches but only after day 16. Samples were taken at various stages as the amount of meth increased and the reactants were replenished after each sample to keep it in reflux! Never again will Ibee need to take that route!
Zib: As Ibee stated previously, he'll never question the quality of any seasoned cook's product until he's bioassayed first hand. Ibee merely wanted to share his experiences with HighCookingTemps and SpaceDope to give bees a guidepost to judge by.
Peaceof the REaction

(Miss High & Mighty)
01-13-03 13:14
No 397758
      yield vs purity.Whats the difference?     

Doesnt it have everything to do with yield ,if we are concidering the amount of methamphetamine vs side reaction/by-products,which is the same as determining purity?
I dont think anyone is realy talking about the yield per weight of recovered white crystals,to which may encompass many various substances(nasty byproducts),but rather the % and therefore the yeild by weight of the desired product e.g meth.
Like if I had recovered 100 crystals,and 10 of them are meth my yeild is 10 meth crystals,so purity is 10%,assuming all crystals are of the same size/weight.
I believe you cannot separate yeild and purity,as the determining factors in both crude yield of recovered product,and the percentage of meth contained within this crude yield are one in the same.

Long reflux has been run many a time.Have never seen this "reversal" phenom` ,but then again never let it go for 7 days.Why is this a seven day event?
This "space dope"you speak of.Do you think the meth is different,or the level of impurities has increased due to
higher temps?(counting on the right answer)<So again its the percentage of meth per unit of recovered product vs the percentage of by-product,and therefore a yield of meth issue which determines the quality of the high,is it not?
Yup I reckon so.

No offence Ware,but you still confuse me in this thread.
I dont know who you are having a go at when you correlate(in such a forceful tone)your preachings with those of Osmiums.
At the short cooker(not a hight issue) is all I can grasp,but from your latest posts,I feel I must have missed some encrypted magic incantation within this thread,that only the four of you,namely rhod,os geez,and ware have been able to gleen.Or are you just saying cook longer and gentler
with clean precursor`s,for optimal results?

(Tweaker God)
01-13-03 14:05
No 397770
      Calculations indicated that only 30% of the E...     

Calculations indicated that only 30% of the E should have turned, at equilibrium this was based om electrical potentials .

Then when you take into account that, the second step of this (SN2) reaction is irreversable, that blows any hope of a simple equilibriun out of the water, the reaction is driven further towards completion .

Now my Granny was absent minded.
She baked a pie for          48 hours  at 117 C.
She has also baked one  for 1 hour   at 220 C.

The difference, one was a little dry, the other a little burnt.
Scrape off the dry and burnt spots, and they tasted the same.

And it is badly misnamed as "the cold reaction"

Reflux it fot seven days?
the bag momma won't be very happy about that.
But who cares,
If it is better, as claimed by these honorable bees,
she won't bitch any more than all the time ,anyway.
If it is about the same , I'll get rid of her.
Either way I win.

(The Abyss)
01-13-03 16:06
No 397778
      no defense     

swiz's dream tale is not meant to refute; rather it was told as a piece of good news; from one who has always beelieved in the slow, wet, and boring way.

swiz is also one who can tell the difference between:
iodometh and 

the real thing

wareami?  is it possible, after a very careful work-up (post rxn np washes x 3; np w/fb washes w/dh20 x 3; slow evap of final liquor; slight dry cold 'tone wash of that; followed by several slow re-crystalizations and washes) that the end 'glass', which vapourizes without a smudge or any flavor; gives a great buzz without jaw grinding, etc...that this product is somehow tainted with something that cannot bee recognized by any analysis? (short of serious lab analyses)

zib adds that his 9 hr dream went very slow; no violence; just slow, gradual bubbling; absolutely no signs of pushing or pulling; no swirling white smoke at any point in the dream; and eventually, a totally 'flat' pool of non-reacting fluid.

is it possible that the slight back pressure provided by a balloon cap, allowed the higher temp to act without damaging anything?

i don't know.

but, after minning the washes, swiz found an incredible 10 gms primo go-go out of his 12 gms precursor.

this statement, i will not defend.

i offer it up as a piece of good news.
swiz is too busy beeing a sex god to have any intrest in beeing a meth he is fine with this beeing ignored; as he's fine with his other tid-bits beeing ignored.

if any one is intersted, swiz would even describe his break-thru pill cleaning method...which frankly, kicks all the others to hell at this point.
(Miss High & Mighty)
01-13-03 17:00
No 397791
      C`mon Zib,dont tease.Out with it you god of...     

C`mon Zib,dont tease.Out with it you god of sex you.
Does this clean up make your meth more potent or what?crazy
(Stoni's sexual toy)
01-13-03 19:15
No 397812
      > Does this clean up make your meth more...     

> Does this clean up make your meth more potent or what?

crazy crazy
Did you bother to read this thread at all?

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
(Miss High & Mighty)
01-13-03 21:00
No 397848
      Hope that was sarcasm     

Os,tell me that was humor of your dry kind.
Unless you wanna tell me how to make my meth more potent.tongue

Oh,and No,I havent read this thread,I just like to pop up in it from time to time and scatter my little pearls of wisdom,for you guys who have no idea about how to produce the killa crank in less then an hour.

(Bee of the Month)
01-13-03 22:35
No 397873
      Yields and techniques     

Zibarium, you crusty old geezer: I'm all ears or eyes, whichever for the straight to zib method of pseudo extraction. Pretty please. You know I'll have to tweak it anyway.

Phlegm: I figured out why you aren't getting the yields you should. You do not extract all the meth. You do not think it is worth your time to get what is left after that first pull. What if your estimate of how much meth was left in the mixture after the first pull was wrong? What if you just assumed there was only another five percent involved?

Is your time that valuable? Or are you cutting corners, taking shortcuts, or half doing the task? Or are you merely assuming, albeit incorrectly, there's just not much meth left? You may have better technique than I do. I have better yields. Why is that? It may be that I do not assume I got "most of it" on the first pull. I also do not want most of it. I want it all. When I discussed yield, I gave yield as a percentage of the weight of the precursor. Thirty two grams pseudo HCl in, twenty six and a half grams of recrystalized methamphetamine out. That is not quite 83% of the weight of the pseudoephedrine reacted. It may not mean a thing of itself, but as an apples to apples comparison, it gives you an idea of how successful the reaction was.

I did not get that on the first pull. I did three pulls. Two the first day, one the next. On purpose, to increase yield. It worked. I also included the methamphetamine that crystalized out of the rinse acetone, and the meth which crystalized out of the motherliquor left in the acetone jar when the first crop of crystals was harvested, and the crop after that one. I included the meth from the third pull and the acetone rinse on that evaporation. I included every scrap of meth I got out of that reaction in the total.

I also remember being surprised at the yield. And the quality. No tweaker fuel here. No clenched jaws, paranoia, insanity. Smooth, clean, effective. Three puff stuff. Folks kept handing the pipe back with meth still in it. Eveyone wanted some for their pocket. For "later." As in "tomorrow."

I have done the same four to five hour synth you do: fairly dry start, add water when it starts to double, reflux another four hours until the red falls. My average yield by the method was in the low seventy percent range by weight compared to the pseudo reacted. And good stuff. Burned clean. It is NOT as good, nor as much, as the meth obtained from an eighteen-to-twenty four hour wet reflux. If it were, I'd still be doing the shorter reflux. 

One last note: the last time SWIG extracted meth, his yield from the first pull was 58%. Care to predict a final yield?
We'll know what it was in another day or two. Will it be more than 63% overall?

I disagree with the comment that there is no difference between meth produced in a reaction maintained at 190░F and meth produced in a reaction at 250░F. I disagree that there is no difference between what you have at six hours and what you have at eighteen. And I damn sure do not agree that the product you have after a wet reflux at 100░C for eighteen hours is the same product as you get after forty minutes at high temp with very little water. Its not. You are telling on yourself if you think it is.

I've argued for the four to five hour cook myself, defended it on terms of exposure and yield, and quality of product. Same argument.

I recant. I was wrong. I advised my fellow bees in error. Again. (Sigh.) I thought I was right then. I know I am now. laugh

Rhodium: In terms not well understood by me and understood much better by you:

26.5 gm Meth/186 gm/mole=.142 mole meth

32 gm pseudo/202 gm/mole=.158 mole pseudo

.142 mole meth/ .158 mole pseudo X 100 = 89.8% yield by mole.

Mostly harmless
(The Abyss)
01-14-03 16:08
No 398084
      a tale of two temps:     

zib probably shouldn't have brought this up in this thread...but it happened; so:

for starts; lemme say that, as far as yields go, swiz is in total agreement w/ geezar.
one of the reasons for zib's claim of 80% +, is beecause he saved every bit of everything at every step of the extraction process...and came back later to fetch it!

this time, unlike others, swiz even dried and chilled his acetone; heated and dried his np, etc, etc...made no difference..there was still LOTS of product going out with the washes..and lots of product staying in the aqueous layer...even after ph 14 was acheived.

it takes time for the migration to happen.
of the 10 gms zib claims (out of 12 sudo), fully 3 of them were hiding in the crap that ordinarily, he would have ignored, or assumed so little would bee there that it isn't worth the chase.

plenty in there.   and, swiz has no doubt that many (most?) bees are tossing a fair deal of goodies out with the trash.
(btw, zib speaking of go-go; not p-fed extraction here)

next; zib needs to look at the data in this thread:

knowledgeable bees speak in terms of long slow refluxes as though they are not related to the QUANTITY of reactants!

it is!

(not unreasonable to guess that a smaller rxn (in a small vessel) is not going to need the same reflux time as a larger one)

also, as per temperature: bees hint at the fact that the higher (and faster) temps might damage things, or create a new, and evil, sort of dope.

well, perhaps...but who will have the chem-kahoonas to tell me (or any bee) exactly at what temp this evil takes place?

an analogy has been used in this thread to cooking food.
well, has any bee ever noticed, that food, cooked in a pressure cooker at a higher temp (thus faster) is somehow tainted? that "slow cooked" potatoes are somehow superior?

zib better bust up this p[ost into a few parts.
lemme say, he wasn't looking for this particular fact, he was planning a 24 hr. reflux.

pisser is, it was done in 9!
(The Abyss)
01-14-03 16:21
No 398087
      more zibbery:     

at the far end of the long reflux spectrum, is wareami's strange bit of data about a return to p-fed, after the really, really long reflux.

so...bad things happen eventually?
at what point?

who knows...but, perhaps it can bee said that more time is only better up to a point.

i'd say that point occurs when all the precursor has been reduced!

how to know when that has occurred during a wet reflux?

pure hunch; at least for me...and a few other, nearly imperceptible signs! (later on that one)

as far as zib's bodacious pill cleaning can he bee sure that it would work on all those nasty pills out there?
he doesn't. and so, his claims should bee taken with some leeway.

stay tuned for part 3
(The Abyss)
01-14-03 16:49
No 398093

a couple years ago (fuck! could it have been that long?!) swiz mentioned, in the midst of various threads on pill cleaning, that he was able to achieve 50% thru a mere meoh pull (and filtering); evapping that; and boiling this piss out of the pm w/ tone. i think it took 8 of them! but left swiz w/ a reactable precursor.
at the time, other bees were going thru some shit heap of steps to get perhaps, 10 % more out of their pills.

so beefore anyone gets excited, lemme say, swiz still only got 50% of the pill goods; with much shittier pills.
(btw, haven't tried to mine the left-over pill mass those yields could go up)

what did he do?

1. ground pills to 'dust' w/ coffee-bean grinder
2. filtered out all "non-dust-like residuals" w/ panty-hose.   (use clean panty-hose if the wearer of them was sexually excited prior to your filtering needs)
3. soak the dust (overnite) in some warm and dry zylene

4. next morning, decant the dirty xylene and dry the pill mass (mostly dry)
5. shake it up (the p.m.) w/ warm methanol until its all well dissolved
6. pour that juice thru an outrageous filter. (swiz figures "if charmin t.p. is so great, how would it bee to use a shit-load? (no pun intended) so he fashioned a long tube of it, and filled the long stem of a funnel with it, and covered that with several more layers left flat; topped with several layers of coffee filters.
this set-up was pre-drenched with me-oh...and the pill juice was dumped into the filtering arrangement while the pre-wettning was still dripping!  (could bee important that the pre-wet filter doesn't begin to dry out beefore dumping in the juice) patience helps at this step, as it will take a long time to filter.
best to have a cover on the funnel and jar set-up, so the alcohol doesn't have an opportunity to evapporate during the slow drip of the filtering.
7. slow evap of the alcohol-pill juice until dry and crumbly. careful not to burn it
8. in a vision-ware (or similar) pan w/ a lid (not tight fit) and a fume hood or fan, boil the pill powder in acetone for a few minutes...doesn't take much...just enough to cover the powder. pour off the dirty acetone.
9. repeat
10. dry until crumbly and send the powder thru a screen; weigh, and put away in a small and tight container.

that's it, cowboys!

(btw, swiz's p-fed was still pink at this point; but had lost all signs of gooeyness...instead seeming more like granulated sugar)

more btw:
this was the precursor swiz used in his 9 hr. success story.

also btw: these pills were gakky as hell...but truthfully, zib don't know if they were as absolutely gacky as they get.

last btw: the xylene looked real clean when it was decanted from the soak...yet a drop of h20 in it revealed (instantly) lots of plastic-like crap. the adulterants don't necessarily show up as a cloudiness in a solvent...some are damn invisable)

swiz is now going to see if there's anything recoverable in the stuff he filtered out.

think i'll go hang out on the couch awhile.

best of luck, bees

(The Abyss)
01-16-03 22:42
No 398816
      shucks! one more btw:     

(hey! where'd everyone go?)

in case any newbee is paying any attention to this, zib should add a bit of clarification concerning the pill cleanage:

what was happening with the panty-hose and the coffee grinder and the poo-poo paper is the crux of this report. beecause:

the bean grinder swiz stumbled on to was such that the red "shells" of the 30mg pills remained un pulverized! true, there was a tiny bit of white on the other side of the red flakes, but the loss seemed worth it to swiz for not having to get the pills wet...or carry all that glaze and shit to the next step.
i bee-labor this point, beecause a different grinder (or blender) might not give this strange seperation...which swiz had never seen beefore.

like-wize, swiz noticed, when screening out the red-flakes from his whiteish dust, that there were also present, some very tiny plastic spheres. so tiny, in fact, that swiz would have never noticed them if he hadn't been trying to screen out the red flakes. in fact, the finest kitchen-utinsel type screen would not catch these balls. the panty hose did! and the dust went thru! quite nicely.

leaving these balls...and quite an impressive amount! (though, alas, zib did not weigh them) but he did eat some, and detected no bitterness...nor could he imagine how the bitters could bee installed in these nano-speroids. and yet, geezemeister suggests that sudo is in the balls too.

and they may. zib respects geeze big-time. thing is, all this shit varies so much.
someone might try what i wrote, and if their pills don't have the little balls; or their grinder doesn't leave the shells intact, it wouldn't work.

plus, it might not work without the special hat and psuedo-incantations.

01-18-03 06:01
No 399285
      more Phlegm thoughts     

Gee whiz, Geez, did you read what I said! I never said I don't do second pulls, my yields are fine, and who said anything about those 45 min dry cook/pyrotechnics disasters? As for the latter, I tried that 2 or 3 times and think it's largely nonsense, unless you like smoking pseudoephedrine.

On second pulls, fuck yes it's worth my time. If they're done at a later date and w/o dumping in a shit load more of NaOH. They're a waste of time if done it right away, because I'll just have to do it again later. I believe that there's more shit to had if the basic soln is left to sit at least a few days before doing more pulls - the longer it sits, the better. Let it sit a week, then pull it again. In fact, I pool all my basic solutions in 5 gallon glass jugs and do some pulls on it after several months. It's much more efficient that way. And when that's finished, I get the iodine back out of it before I discard it. Precursor, reagent, and product recovery are as important as anything else in this game.

As far as my yields go, I still believe they're close to being as good as they can be in the real world, no matter how you calculate them. Since everything we all are doing is for the clandestine laboratory, and not a chemistry midterm, I think wt:wt yield expression makes sense because it's simple and can quickly be done in your head. Who cares that you got x moles of shit from y moles of pseudo? What you want to know is how MUCH shit you got back for what you put in! But as far as this yield stuff, it can be dropped. I'm more interested in the temperature/purity thing.

You know, psychology plays a much more significant role in the perception of how good your shit is than many people think. We all can distinguish pseudo infested dope from the real deal. But when it comes to finer shades of differences I think we're wide open to suggestion - our own, as well as from others. I've never seen any post at the hive adequately describe these contaminants that are supposed to result from refluxing a HI/RP/pseudo mixture. Is it believed because Os or Geez says it's so? And how do they know it's true? Because it seems like that's what should happen? Or do they have access to the needed lab equipment to run the experiments necessary to make such statements? If not, then are any book or journal article references provided to support their case? Or are they relying on bioassays to confirm an already strong belief? Hardly an accurate method to rely on. I mean, I swear that I can't tell any difference at all between my dope that's from a 6 hr reflux compared to dope from a long, long, long incubation. Geezmeister even admits that he flip flops on this issue. Do this: set up 2 reactions using the same amounts of ingredients from the same batches of ingredients in the same size and type of vessels. Reflux one for 6 to 8hrs. Incubate the other at 180F (as measured inside the vessel with the thermometer bulb immersed in the reactants) for as long as you like. Then work up the products in an identical manner. Close your eyes and have someone load samples of each one into new pipes,
and then see if you can pick which is which. Also, the yield from the reflux will be no less than from the other.
(The Abyss)
01-18-03 17:46
No 399400
      pharmaceutical meth?     

anybee know how legal meth is synthed? from methyl amine? what about the extraction?
(Chief Bee)
01-18-03 20:42
No 399433
      industrial meth     

Very likely through catalytic hydrogenation of the imine between P2P and methylamine. If they make dextro-meth, they probably use P2P and optically active N-Methyl-1-phenylethylamine (which after the amination undergo hydrogenolysis to form d-meth and ethylbenzene.
(Stoni's sexual toy)
01-20-03 15:34
No 399888
      > I've never seen any post at the hive...
(Rated as: excellent)

> I've never seen any post at the hive adequately describe
> these contaminants that are supposed to result from
> refluxing a HI/RP/pseudo mixture.

Look again. There were heated discussions about that very topic.

> Is it believed because Os or Geez says it's so?

Not only Os and Geez say that.

> And how do they know it's true? Because it seems like that's what should happen?

Yes, that is one reason.

> Or do they have access to the needed lab equipment to run
> the experiments necessary to make such statements?

I occasionally have access to analytical instruments. Not right now though.

> If not, then are any book or journal article references
> provided to support their case?

Yes, plenty. Have a look at Rhodium's site, it has all the papers you need to know about.

> Or are they relying on bioassays to confirm an already
> strong belief?

Yes, that too. I did an A/B of the post-reaction mixture and observed what I saw (which was totally in line with what the books/ref/theory predicted). Then I evapped the washes to isolate at least some of the predicted impurities and looked at the residue, smelled it etc. Also compared the taste, smell, consistency of regular and A/B purified dope. And so on.

> Hardly an accurate method to rely on.

Wrong. While you cannot necessarily tell if your coffee was cheap or expensive you usually can tell if there's milk in it or not by looking at it. You cannot say exactly how many sugar cubes were added, but you can tell if there's sugar in it at all or not by tasting it.

> I mean, I swear that I can't tell any difference at all
> between my dope that's from a 6 hr reflux compared to
> dope from a long, long, long incubation.

Sure. If I add some sugar to a glass of coke the sugar content might rise 5%, yet most people won't be able to tell it apart from a regular coke. Still, the sugar content is higher in one glass than the other.

Since most human senses work logarythmically you cannot reliably detect small changes. But the advantage is that you can often detect if something is there or not at all, over a wide range. We have no problems whatsoever to detect the slightest light source several miles away at night, but can't tell the difference between a 400 and 500W lamp during bright daylight. We can hear a dime falling on the floor or a slight breeze of wind shaking the leaves on the tree outside, yet still won't be instantly deafened by a broken car muzzler or loud rock concert.

If you come to the conclusion that you don't mind and 80% meth/20% pfed (400W lamp) is good enough for you, fine. I still want mine to be as pure as possible (the 500W lamp).

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
01-20-03 17:58
No 399910
      perfect sense     

I can understand this post very well and feel more apt to agree with you. Somehow it makes better sense stated this way than in previous encounters on this topic.. I'm sill a fucking hard head at times. Swim ran a reflux  during this event (thread)but wrongly he was still upset not wanting to look at anything he might be doing as substandard and did not give it a chance, No mater how it came out it was not going to agree with another than my narrow minded clams at the time. In other words it was a BIOS reaction.. I think you are striving for nothing but the best and that is admirable by any standards and I for one will read you post more carefully in the future. My apologies for not looking at the effort applied or giving the end result the chance it deserved.. My hats off to you and your sharing of your knowledge with us. No I'm not going to be happy with a 400w light when a 500w could be had... And thank you for bring it to my attention.

The end result is directly connected to the effort applied
(Hive Addict)
01-20-03 18:05
No 399914
      Osmium you are right but miss the point     

In Methworld things are different.
Look at the topic of the thread:

The Secret behind Potency of Meth

Do you read purity anywhere? Next example:

Super High Potentcy Push/Pull dope

Most are not searching for clean pure meth to produce but for to yield the right mix of impurities which has the most devilish impact, the hardest mind spoiler. They like it this way. It┤s their right to do so I believe and we won┤t forget that in the Xtasy scene mixes are much more common and beloved.

Now everybody will shout: "no, no, not I!" followed by:"but I know many people who are this way"

The only ones I know who truely want a clean as possible meth (clean from impurities) are the ADDH┤s AS and similar haunted ones who selfmedicate and want as less side effects as possible. Who takes it for plain fun wants the big bang. What┤s a bug for one person is a feature for someone else.
Exceptions prove the rule true.

As the common base is missing here.
No real communication is possible.

Post 399486 (not existing)
(Hive Bee)
01-20-03 18:42
No 399924
      Mix of impuritieis     

I believe that Organikum is correct in his point that the majority of methamphetamine users are looking for a product with the proper mix of impurities that they are used to.  I have had many friends who are used to washed down street dope, whereby the uncrystallized street product was given a slow acetone/alcohol recrystalization and then filtered and then used as a clean product.  Many actually preffer this to an actual product that was produced via lab grade precursosrs and proper methodology.  I can't coun't how many times I recieved the response, sure it keeps me up, but it just doen't give me that warm feeling, or get me going really.  Some people even reffered to the clean stuff as a product only suitable to be mixed with the washed down product, otherwise it's wouldn;t envoke the shadow ppl, or the off the wall thought so sought after by many. 

Acetone washed crank has to be one of the dirtiest products around nonetheless many preffer it over actual clean product.  My theroy for a long time was that they sought a solvent high, and actually missed the acetone, toulene, or IPA rush that they got for the improperly made product.  I am begining to think that the othe rimpurities come into play as well.  There are crowds so used to RP meth that they actually hold ppl who use NH3 meth in a lower regard and say they are crazy to be using the NH3 stuff.  I know ppl who use NH3 stuff who say the RP stuff does nothing for them.  Also the majority of those used to the mexican crank washed down and sold as glass think that the home chemist stuff is weak and should be made stronger.  Estracted Desoxyn (pharm. grade methamphetamine), which has been cleaned up is seen as bearly being a product at all.

It truly was a let down to hear that the super clean product I had was being mixed with washed down crank in order to make it saleable, when I knew for a fact that mine was made the proper way with clean precursors and sound methodology.   For this reason alone I support organikum's theroy. 

I am one of those who has spent years trying to educate myself, perfect methodology, aquire proper precursors, and develop my skills into being able to have as a near a 100% pure l-meth product as possible; however, perhaps I am one of those ADHDer's that Org speaks of, because all of my efforts stand by the wayside when ppl say man can't you just make some of that lith that you used to have around ( made from GUP's none the less) and I try to explain to them how this product is much better -- and I am greeted with the response I'll just mix is 3:2 with some wash down then and everyone will like it . . . .


(Distinctive Doe)
01-20-03 20:03
No 399945
      I'll bet most mexi-dope is cut with ephedrine,     

I'll bet most mexi-dope is cut with ephedrine, because ephedrine has so many obvious "perephial effects" that people know their "fucked-up".

This is just a guess.  Hell if I was a dealer I might do the same thing, whatever makes the customer happy.
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
01-20-03 22:48
No 399983
      I live in the methworld     

I live in the meth world, have been for quite some time now, I for one would like to live a nice long life while enjoying the product which swim makes. By striving for a clean pure product I hope to ensure this to be true. Over the years one becomes a wear of exactly what damage is being inflicted by dope that is manufactured strictly for distribution with no regards to health. I once said if it is an impurity they like so much and if we could just manufacture that impurity would it still be considered an impurity???? or would it be the desired product??? But why poison yourself knowingly if you have the means to not to. I for one do not suffer from mussel spasms and jerky twitches while trying to go to sleep after being up for a few days working, I do not think my lower back is hurting when it's actually my kidneys that are swollen and pressuring my CNS, I don't wake with jaw mussels sore and chipped teeth from a tooth grinding locked jaw buzz. My body does not tense every mussel for long periods of time that I'm not even a wear of happening until hours have passed, My bones don't ake at every joint after a few days of abstinence and my mind does not see people in trees watching me or I don't think everyone is a cop after a few days of non stop working on simple project that has turned into a task that will never be completed or amount to anything worth while, the whole time thinking I'm doing something constructive.... All those actions I can attribute to impurity's, I have even been able to predict behavior patterns due to impurity's in a large batch that is manufactured strictly for profit and cut loose for the public to enjoy... Myself I would rather enjoy a clean high from a product that is as clean as can possibly be had. The ones around you that need to feel the heat when hitting, get a pinch of crushed rock salt in there bag, Not ideometh or azidrine, The ones that enjoy the above can purchase there gear from the mexican connection but those close to swim will haft to have there shit together a little better than that or they can join the many forced to deal with the street and its product. It is not only unhealthy but poses a threat to security to even have that kind of user in your company..... Strive for the best if not for anything but for your own health and safty... You can't spend your profit or enjoy your buzz dead of in jail.. There is a lot more to impurity's than meets the eye ;{        

The end result is directly connected to the effort applied
(Bee of the Month)
01-20-03 23:50
No 400005
      Diitos on Jacked's comments     

I understand what Jacked says about impurities completely, and I feel the same way. I concur that the side effects that tell some they have done meth have nothing to do with meth. They do have to do with how it is produced. I have noted the correlation between high flask temperature and several of the tweakier side effects, like shooting sparks. I think the amount of water in the reaction moderates the effect of the heat, and that less heat and a drier reaction may cause as many side effects as higher heat with a wetter reaction. It is hard to say what temperature range results in what side effects without comparing the moisture content of the flask, and the purity of the ingredients.

I have noted that jaw clench starts first, is mild to begin with and increases with temperature; that the voices come next, followed by the faces and shadow people, and the sparks last, and only at high heat. 

I find that the product of a wet reflux which reached a maximum temperature of 103C was free from these side effects but was certainly the real thing and as good as it gets.

Nor was this a psychological quirk, or wishful thinking on my part. When you have person after person make the same comment about the product, without solicitation or suggestion, you realize they can discern the differences between the methods. I was not doing the wishful thinking, or evaluation of the batch. I read their responses. All of them commented on a three puff high; on the absence of jaw clench or teeth grinding, the long period of effectiveness, the absence of a need to go back for a  few more puffs, and the non-tweakerish ability to focus on and complete a task.

I did not help form their opinions or observations. I did note their impressions. To a person they agreed the batch was smoother and cleaner than my "normal" stuff, which they were quick to add was very good. They could tell the difference, and articulate the differences, and were consistent with the differences they noted. I will take that as confirmation of the theory without lab analysis.

I could tell the differences between product from the long reflux and the four to five hour cook, and so could they. They did it without knowing the method employed in production. They only knew it was a new batch. If a humnan cannot discern such minor differences, why did each of my patrons have the same comments?

You know the answer to that question. 


Mostly harmless
01-25-03 05:17
No 401272
      why buy impurities?     

nobody in their right mind wants impurities in their dope.Why would you pay good money for bad dope. You want pure dope for your $$$. Go home and put all the bunk in it you want,but the impurities are not going to get you high. Drugs are purified by distiilation,crystallization then recrystallizing, these are the final step in drug manufacturing. 
01-26-03 04:59
No 401522
      Garbage in = Garbage out     

My buddy swij swears that most crappy product is the result of crappy methods, and it is just that simple -

dirty precursors equals dirty result in other words.

careless methodology through the reaction will result in numerous nasty by products, all of which can be clearly seen if one takes the time to evap ones solvents (experimentally, of course) - as has been said here many times, a busy reaction which fades quickly and requires increasing heat, up to say 230 F (not C, oops,sorry!), to continue to throw gas and mist, until finally it just sits there, yellow oil amidst RP, usually 8 - 12 hours AT LEAST.

It is worth noting that a reaction can in fact be shut down and reheated to its boring conclusion. Much like the recent post from Worlock states, removing your attention and outside heat from the vessel will not stop the reaction, it will proceed at the rate of Brownian motion regardless, as long as the reagents are adequately pure and properly proportioned. The reason for gradually increasing heat is that as the process approaches completion, there are fewer and fewer molecules reacting, and they have to find each other. Heat merely accelerates the process of these molecules finding one another.

A word on proportions, and if you have good precursors you will always have good results, and will need NO HEAT to fire it off. Once the rxn calms, then slowly increasing heat is what swij claims he does.

1 part E or PE

1 to 1.5 part RP (depends on the alchemist' temperament, laugh)

2 parts I2

1 drop water per 1.5 g I2, (more may be added later in the reflux, experience is the only teacher)

Easy does it - boring as hell except for that first few minutes.

Obviously excessive heat will cause side reactions, resulting in aziridines, mutant molecules etc.

just like OS said.

But the keys to the primo are simple.

Pure ingredients, do not cut corners.

Bee patient and do not over heat.

Let the reaction mix sit an hour or so after removal from heat, and let it breathe. Then boil the filtered fluid with Al shreds for a few minutes, best way swij knows to get rid of (or perhaps, dare Swij say it, Complete! any unfinished mutant iodo molecules.

Seems like far too dull a job once you get it down.

Use a little care and those suggestions and your stuff will beat the pants off any other meth-od. Including the crap the Pharm companies worldwide make. Side affects come into play only due to overconsumption of this incredibly smooth, gentle, deceptively superpotent product.

Carefully base it, into Toluene, nothing else even comes close for efficiency.

Gas it out, wash it with tone, and straight into the freezer to stabilize the molecules.

Ain't it a bitch?

And yes of course bright light (photons or waves? hmmmm) will also accelerate excitation of the mixture - how could anyone think differently? Light radiation powers the universe, bees.

And swij learned all that right here at the Hive, and has proven it to himself and I many times over. Man I wish I was able to snag the young chicks he does, but that is another story.

Happy Trails to all of you, long live the Hive.

I ain't signing nothing, no way.
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
01-26-03 05:38
No 401527
      must be swim methods     

Most people want a certain impurity in there dope, I'm not sure which one they want but there is a difference they like?????? They will trade a rextalized product for the first run damp stuff damn near every time.. They don't know any better. Just like when swim use to resort to the street for his high, He knew no better than what he got. Shit the pink shit was the bomb everyone agreed. Then as we progress some of us learn what it should be like and others just don't get it.. Or refuse to understand.. Then there are the dealers.... They will cut for profit.. That is the way it goes. You cant blame them for shitty reactions just some cut.. If everyone on the street level would stop buying bad dope then and only then production cooks would get there shit together, there mind set is "Shit there gonna buy it anyway why spend the extra time fixing a fuck-up" and they are right. People will buy it if its brown pink yellow green or white.. that is the truth.

The end result is directly connected to the effort applied
(Hive Martyr)
07-21-03 14:32
No 448809

That's what happened to the A/B at the end of the reaction which once used to be standard procedure

What happened to the A/B Os ? I dont get what your saying about the A/B getting fucked up by idiots or sumfin?

Please explain just this. The rest of the write up needs no explanation.

(Stoni's sexual toy)
07-21-03 15:30
No 448814
      > What happened to the A/B Os ?     

> What happened to the A/B Os ?

A few years ago some people stopped doing the A/B after a reaction. Either the concept was way over their heads, or they thought that it reduces their yields, or whatever. Maybe they liked peanut butter meth. Or maybe they thought that meth without an odor isn't meth.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
(Hive Bee)
07-21-03 19:43
No 448843
      What are your thoughts     

on after the red has been filtered and solvent washes to base with sodium carbonate?  Add your fav non polar and then
put this on the side, holding the psudo in it. 

Then using lye to base out the meth and process as usual.

Produce suda free meth?

Your opinions welcome.
(Hive Bee)
07-21-03 20:10
No 448848
      I have often wondered....     

Is it possible to have meth and psuedo in the post rxn solution?  I mean if the rxn has progressed far enough to actually start producing meth then wouldn't the unreduced portion bee iodio something?  Anybee know what ph is required to base iodio??????. 

My guess is that iodio????? is quite similar to meth.  This is because i have never had any success steam distilling pseudo but I always get something when i steam distill the post rxn solution.  However, I have definetly gotten some shitty product from this process in the past and although it didn't smell like or burn like pseudo, it wasn't meth either.  Hope this makes sense.

It wasn't Me!
07-21-03 21:59
No 448868
      What is the best Condenser for reflux RP/I ?     

What is the best Condenser for reflux RP/I ??
Simple condenser !
balls condenser!
or serpentine condenser !
(Hive Bee)
07-21-03 22:02
No 448870
      I agree Shorty     

A past cook yielded a street like product, so determined to make it as good as it can be recrystalizations commensed.  After cleaning the heck out of it it smelled like psudo instead of nothing like it should.  The stuff did have a kick but not what SWIS is looking for.
(Of Counsel)
07-21-03 23:15
No 448885

You can have both meth and pseudo in the same batch. Never assume that the reaction proceeds in a formal, precise manner of reducing all the pseudoephedrine to an intermediate before reducing any of the intermediate to meth, then to methamphetamine. A good deal of pseudo will be reduced to an intermediate right at the start of the reaction. Part of that intermediate will be reduced to methamphetamine very early on, as early as fifteen to twenty minutes into the actual reaction. You may encounter the product of reactions that ran for as little as twenty minutes which contain appreciable levels of methamphetamine, and  which will keep you awake for a considerable time if you do enough. These will usually include a little bit of pseudo, and a good portion of intermediates. I find these batches, regardless of how clean the pseudo, to be prone to cause jaw clenching.

In my experience the pseudo is most often found in reactions that were insufficient from the start in HI. This usually will be the case where the red phosphorous was inadequate to produce enough HI to reduce all of the pseudo to an intermediate. It also happens with insufficient I2. This is common with lower quality red phosphorous, or "tired" mbrp that is more glass and trash than phosphorous. It can happen with recycled I2 that is not resublimed, or with too-wet I2 from tinc whose weight is not adjusted to compensate for the moisture content.  Loss of HI in gas form at the start would have much the same result. These reactions may have some  reduction to methamphetamine, but will have a good portion of unreduced pseudoephedrine, and more intermediates. If the shortage of either of Iodine or phosphorous is pronounced, you may have nothing but pseudo and a little intermediate. In reactions which commenced with sufficient precursors to complete, but which failed because of leaks, or gakks coating the phosphorous preventing recycling, it is more common to find intermediates and little if any pseudoepehdrine, as the the HI was present for a sufficient time to at least complete the first reduction. It did not complete because the HI fell too low during the reaction itself as the red got dirty and was ineffective to cause the I2 to be recycled.  The HI level falls too low to drive the second reduction, although the first reduction is very close to complete.

When one finds pseudo in large percentages in the final product, the reaction was doomed from the start, as it never had sufficient HI to complete. Most incomplete reactions that contain intermediates but no noticeable pseudo suggest a mid-reaction failure from an otherwise sufficient inital soup. 

Or that is how I have it figured, for what its worth.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
07-21-03 23:39
No 448891
      I agree     

I have also found that jaw clenching meth is produced when cooking a hypo rxn too hot.  I now just add the iodine to the hypo while constantly swirling the flask stopping only to add the iodine which is divided into 4-8 portions depending on the size of the rxn.  No ice bath is used and no HI escapes except for sometimes a little escapes after adding the last of the iodine.  But if swirling is not constant it will defenitly escape and i mean it will fill the entire room with smoke.  The temp will get up to 60C at most.  After all the iodine is dissolved i then add the psuedo and heat gently until the bubbling just barely starts.  The heat is then very gently increased whenever activity slows with the final temp after 2 hours cooking time being 125-130C.  I have found this to bee the most consistent method for me.  Before this it was always a hit and miss situation with the jaw clenching meth randomly being the result. 

Hey geez, did ya check out that pdf on rp.  It answered alot of those little questions i used to have about rp.

It wasn't Me!
(Hive Bee)
07-21-03 23:53
No 448895
      Re: Secret behind potency of Meth     

Smooth, has been the yield of  meth via chloroephedrine  through Catalytic hydrogenation. The solvent and product after hydrogenation is clear as water.....and the yield is pure snow rocks....and TLC is 95%  most of the time Meth ,with occasional unreacted chloroephedrine which can be corrected with an additional hydrogenation and fresh Pd/

We're  all in this world together,
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
07-23-03 12:08
No 449235
      Swim has reported an increase in yield over a...     

Swim has reported an increase in yield over a period of 6 months doing a long reflux to be in the area of 240 grams that he would not have seen doing a quick reaction... Shit, His ass needs to settle down.

Tighten Up!  (UH)
(Of Counsel)
07-23-03 15:33
No 449257
      better yields     

Ahh! The man comments on yields from the reflux! I agree with your observations, across the board, yields have been better. I also noticed that recrystalizing resulted in less loss of weight than before, which I assumed was a matter of the initial yield being purer than I was otherwise accustomed to obtaining.

I have accepted the long reflux times as a matter of the philosophy of the cook itself and no longer have any qualms about the time at all. I am still amazed that one can pretty much set it and forget it for a couple of days and return to great yeilds and fine quality. Something in the back of the mind nags and says it shouldn't be that easy...but it is.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
07-24-03 00:29
No 449340
      Howl-A-Mutha-Fuckin-Loo-Yaaaaa!!!!!! :Ľ■     

Swim has reported an increase in yield

The 2nd happiest of daze in Ibeeware's life as a bee!


Peace of the reaction


Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.
(Hive Addict)
07-24-03 02:30
No 449359

How long iz youz beez fluxin' theeze daze?

While snoozing, 24 hours has become swimz buddiez standard flux dreamtime as it has proved to bee higher yeilding than his previous 12hr sessions.

Are you doing 3 day fluxers Geeze?

Also, does anyone know if a hot plate sucks down a lot of electrical power?

technically they could not say "vagina" and thus was born the new word "bajingo"
(Hive Addict)
07-24-03 03:58
No 449370
      Temp is crucial to speed-E-delivery     

Ibee still has the coffee maker that was notorious for the 3 dayers!
Temp was never measured inside rxn but it keeps h2o at a constant 90░C.

For eyetype hot plates that are ajustable, Ibee finds a setting of between 5-6 on a scale of ten suitable for a 30hr cook in an oilbath! The KIDZ don't use them anymore because of the exposed element and the fire risk.
Ibee also woks around some on an old farberware stainless steel jobbie that he uses for oilbath because it has a temp range between 100░F and 500░F. Warm, Cook, and Fry settings!
The 24hr cooks get set on 195░F in the oil bath wok!
All others GO for 30-36hrs on the directheat 90░C coffeemaker.
The water to reactant ratio plays a large role as well.
But bees all know this.
Don't they??? :Ľ■
Peace of the reaction


Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.
(Of Counsel)
07-24-03 16:18
No 449519
      Afraid to ask....     

I'm AFRAID to ask what Ware's HAPPIEST day was!

I have gotten in the habit of doing the reaction during the week, like starting it on Tuesday and just letting it run for a couple of days. I like to run at least 36 hours, but 48 doesn't bother me at all. I will start the reaction, check it the next evening, then go begin the post-reaction workup on the next evening. That way everyone has fresh diamonds on Friday night...and Geez is not working weekends anymore....which he likes. Its not like the reaction is not checked in on more often than that... I have a fellow who changes the water in the ice chest when it get warm, although its never really been critical. I don't have to do it. I've had one reaction where the water pump quite working for a time, and the balloon swelled up considerably, but the apprentice caught the situation and the reaction completed without any problem.

Jacked...that's a nice improvement in profit margin, is it not?

Mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
07-24-03 17:34
No 449542
      Wound Crisp!     

Anxiety and Anticipation have long been an obstacle for Ibee! Ego and Humility seldom float in the same boat, harmoaniously, on the same voyage. One or the other is destined to bee forced to walk the plank.
Humility, being the most timid, usually gives in to Ego much like Impatience usually caves in to the constant whining of Anxiety and Anticipation.
The third happiest day in Ibee's life as a bee, was actually  15 separate daze! "Failure Daze" as The Kidz affectionately refer to them!
Without them, he'd have never had the pleasure of learning what "Patience" IS! The School of hardknocks way! And he'd have taken the words "Tighten UP" Completely out of context!
Tenacity and a willingness to adjust is a must in this ever mind expanding field!
Ibee still strives to "Tighten UP at every quarter turn. But there really isn't much more to tighten as he's wound tighter than an E-String tooned two octaves HIGH!tongue
The entertainer in Ibee revels in others delight.
That's Why He's Hear!
It's that simple!
Okay Okay...I know the suspence is Killin ya...for those that don't know what Ibee's happiest day was!
Ibee and The KIDZ are confident that many more consecutive Happ-E-ist daze will follow weather they're around to witness them or not!
Post 437583 (wareami: "Rates, times and heat of rxn", Stimulants)
It's been written....
"~Just Wing It~"
Tighten UP!
Peace of the reaction


Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.
(Of Counsel)
07-24-03 17:41
No 449545
      Glad to have been a part     

I'm glad to have been a part of your best day!

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
07-26-03 21:47
No 450004
      Out of curiosity     

Swis had about 3 grams of good saleable but not quite the (horney) meth that swis had been making.  So this clean product was based with washing soda.  The Xylene from the sodium carbonate base was set aside.  The lower layer received lye a slight milky cloud was noticed (easily could have been the lye).  The usual work up
produced 2.25 grams from the sodium carbonate Xylene.  .40 from the lye Xylene.
The lye Xylene was the clear thinking non tired (horney) meth that is desired.  The sodium Carbonate meth improved slightly as well....

Swis will do this base procedure the next cook and report the results.
08-09-03 12:51
      christ on a cross
(Rated as: insignificant)
08-20-03 09:02
No 454658
      I still can't believe you people are doing...     

I still can't believe you people are doing these insanely long incubations that serve no purpose whatever except to maybe burn the the place down because of the extended nontended periods or to get you sent to prison because you've got your ass hanging out there exposed way longer than it needs to be.
(Hive Addict)
08-20-03 11:18
No 454673
      Purity of Meth     

In swims honest and humble opinion, the purity of meth is not in the procedure that it takes to gain the meth, rather it is the experience in the chemist on his/her knowledge on when a reaction has finished or is about to finish is whether the meth is pure or close to.
(Of Counsel)
08-20-03 15:19
No 454700
      insanely long yields and potentcy     

Phlegm: perhaps if you indulged a few times in what you consider insanely long refluxes you would discover as quickly as I did the purpose they actually serve. You sound like I used to sound, until I learned better from experience.

ScuzZ-- the purity is in the precursors and letting the reaction complete. If you reflux, you pretty much take the skill and experience issue out of knowing when its complete. Let the wrong types of trash in the flask and all  the skill and experience in the world won't give you good dope. The most highly developed skill at determining the reaction has completed can be replaced by a little bit longer reflux. You can do this reaction in a way that the potency of the product is dependent on the skill of the cook in knowing when its complete. Or you can reflux. Six in one....

Mostly harmless
08-23-03 19:14
No 455219
      Geezmeister, I DO have much experience doing...     


I DO have much experience doing long wet incubations (I'm not really sure the term "reflux" is correct for this method). Three years ago when the two hour pyrotechnics trick as per Worlok and Methhead was the only thing anybody at the hive discussed, I was doing 16 to 48 hour runs at 180F. It was the only way I could get it to work - and it worked damned well. I also performed a number of experiments running flasks with identical ingredients, side by side, at the same temp (180F), varying only the durations of their runs. I never discussed these on the board because I felt stupid about the whole thing. I then went to experiments with higher temps and shorter run times. In attempting to discuss them at the Hive, I was just really turned off by the arrogance a certain moderator who presents his opinions as fact, without providing any substantive support of his position. So, I gave up. Now, maybe I will try to present my point again. I am a very patient individual and I don't have problems waiting on long reductions per se. But from my viewpoint  there are two aspects of the long "reflux" that could (and will for someone, eventually) result in the worst kind of troubles a clandestine lab chemist can have. The chemist should constantly be aware that we are in guerilla warfare with the authorities. And that's my first big concern. The whole time a reflux is going the chemist's ass is hanging out raw and naked. If the cops come to your house for say DV, or your stereo's too loud, or someone requests a check on your wellfare, or for any fucking reason at all, and they happen to see or smell something ... well, then you're cooked. Maybe sounds far fetched? It does happen. Listen to a police scanner for a while (which anyone should be doing every second they're in the lab anyway) and you will see. It's simply a matter of probability, and the longer you leave yourself vulnerable the greater the risk. Now if you're the type that just leaves all your lab shit lying around instead of hiding/removing it post reaction, then this point has little bearing on you.

The other major concern with these long runs is that when we're talking about 24 hour, 48 hour, and 72 hour run times it is obvious that these runs almost always are going to have large blocks of time in which they are left unattended.
I have done that many times, and it scares the hell out of me each time. There is so much to go wrong. Crashing into your set up as you nod off trying to stay awake is not a good thing. And I have done it. But at least I was there to take care of the problem. What happens when you're not there and the flask breaks/explodes/implodes and your red phos or hypo or phosporus acid starts on fire? If the house burns to the ground with you or your family in it, then nothing matters. But if you're lucky and no one gets hurt, and even if the house is mostly spared, you're still going to have to contend with the fire department. Which means you're going to be seeing the police, because there is little doubt that the FD will be able to determine the cause of the blaze. What if the hose comes off and you've got a really misty one cookin'. Will the neighbors smell it and maybe call the Hazmat unit? Or worse, what if you're sleeping in the lab and out of the hose spills a bunch of phosphine. The potentials list goes on and on. What solves all this and cuts way back exposure time is a wet hotter rection. A Rx done at 185F that requires 3 days is finished after about 4.5 hours at 255F. This is not conjecture. I have performed it and it works. I still go for 3 hours at minimum regardless of the precursor quantites, just to make sure. As for quality, I believe it is indistinguishable from that of long lower temp wet run. IF a slight degrade were detectable I still think the tradeoff would easily be worth the safety edge one realizes in doing a short hotter wet run. A strategy I have tried that works as well is to due the early part of a run for say from 4 to 8 hours at 190F then go to 255 for 2 or 3 hours. This would be equivalent to at least a 36 hour run done entirely at low temperatures. Considering that the reaction rate is much greater during the earlier hours of any run, you may have reacted two-thirds of the precursor during those 4 to 8 hours at your "preferred" lower temp anyway before you jack up the temperature to 255F to finish up. Once the MA is formed, going to 255F will not affect it. I've also tried slowly ramping the temperaure. Starting at 175F and reaching 260F at the very end. Works fine too.

As for aziridines, this is not a problem. One of the papers available at Rhodium's site shows a chromatograph of a run a group did at 265F. It nicely shows over time the PE peak decreasing, a concommittant increase in the MA peak and a steady decline of the aziridine peak until it no longer existed after 5 hours, having been converted to MA.
(Stoni's sexual toy)
08-24-03 11:33
No 455386
      I never said to heat it to 180░F (100░C), I...     

I never said to heat it to 180░F (100░C), I said reflux it. The reflux temp is about 130░C (that should be close to 260F, correct me if I'm wrong).

> One of the papers available at Rhodium's site shows a
> chromatograph of a run a group did at 265F. It nicely
> shows over time the PE peak decreasing, a concommittant
> increase in the MA peak and a steady decline of the
> aziridine peak until it no longer existed after 5 hours,
> having been converted to MA.

That's comparing apples to oranges, they used an excess of reagent grade aq. HI if I remember correctly. The ratios of pseudo and I2 the bees are using will produce a much smaller excess of HI.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
(Of Counsel)
08-25-03 19:01
No 455584
      I've made the same arguments
(Rated as: good read)

I've made the same arguments, Phlegm. I changed my mind. I decided it made more sense to use lower temperatures (which carry with them lower risks of equipment failure, seal failure, by-product creation, and fire) and run the reflux for a longer time to insure completion. The yield after recrystallizing the product is what convinced me to go this way. The insignificant loss of weight in the recrystallization process convinced me the product was purer product than any other method I had used.

 I agree that if you start at a lower temperature and increase it after the first couple of hours, you avoid creating most of the by-products associated with cooking hot. Some of the adverse effects associated with meth are related to unreduced intermediates rather than by-products. You can force the reaction to completion faster with heat, knowing with skill and experience when the reaction is for all practical purposes complete, or you can not worry about it and let it reflux long enough to take care of itself at lower temperatures without needing those skills or that experience. I do not routinely heat the reaction above 100C. I do not heat it above 115C when I do exceed 100C. I opted for longer times at lower temperatures, and am happy with my choice. I prefer the product made at lower temperatures, which always seems to have a smoother effect and less of a hard edge to it that meth made at higher temperatures.

The whole time a reflux is going the chemist's ass is hanging out raw and naked. If the cops come to your house for say DV, or your stereo's too loud, or someone requests a check on your wellfare, or for any fucking reason at all, and they happen to see or smell something ... well, then you're cooked. Maybe sounds far fetched? It does happen

Yes, it does. That is why I do not cook at home, period. I have before. But the very reason you cite for doing a shorter cook is also a reason for doing a clandestine reflux in the closet in the bedroom rather than cooking in the kitchen on Saturday afternoon. I can do a long wet reflux without an odor problem. You would never know it was there and refluxing, even if you were a cook and suspected me of cooking. I would prefer to keep the stereo down, let folks know I am fine, and keep my speeding tickets paid so I do not have arrest warrants issued for non-appearance than I would cook hotter for a shorter time. Hotter invariably increases pressure, increases the chance of odor escaping, increases the odds of something failing or breaking. THOSE factors directly increase the chance of detection.

The best way of avoiding detection is never giving the police a reason to come to your door. The next best on is to never have anything in plain view or any peculiar odors detectable at the front door. The argument you pose kept me from doing a long reflux for the longest time. After I changed to the oil bath and at the same time freed myself from working in a kitchen, I realized the arguments were not as persuasive as they first appeared. A lower temperature long wet reflux with a good balloon will provide sufficient odor control to avoid detection-- at least if you don't cook in the entry hall closet by the front door. I was actually surprised by how simple it was to run one undetected and untended if you set it properly to begin with. I have learned the problems and weaknesses with my particular hardware and method, and have learned what to do and what not to do to keep from having failed seals, gas losses, or such. I have learned that the long wet reflux at lower temp can be set up to complete without tending, if need be. Preparation is the key, as always.

I have had a water circulation to the condenser fail during the reflux one time. It might have been a problem had it been untended much longer, as the balloon would probably have failed. Had I been cooking at higher temperatures, it would have failed that time. The lower temperatures prevented the pump failure from being a problem. I studied the arguments you have against the long reflux and came to the opposite conclusion. I do not cook at home, and that no doubt factors into my conclusion. Even if I did, I would do a long reflux at lower temperatures now. 

The parameters of this reaction are sufficiently flexible to allow a wide range of option for successful cooking. The point in the envelope you find most appealing is a successful point, and I have done many reactions successfully in that range. I prefer the results from a different point in the envelope. I agree with most of what you discussed in your post, and agree for the most part with your observations about temperature and completion of the reaction. I like to set it up to run during the week and not be worried with making it finish. I made arrangements suitable for that type of operation. Your arrangements have as much to do with your choices and preferences as mine have to do with mine. We simply reached different conclusions.

Cookie Monster
(Hive Bee)
03-21-04 00:56
No 496371
      I'm going to say this only one time..SO LISTEN UP     

Pure d-Meth is a wonderful MIND thing...while l-Meth is a wonderful BODY thing...i.e.,d-l-Meth is an altogether better experience than just d- alone.And watch out for any Katz in the neighborhood.P2P-Methylamine-Al. foil, and Hydrochloric acid,,,or mercuric chloride,,,for the reduction Rxn.Do a search...P2P From Styrene(or Styrofoam...available wherever picnic supplies are sold...or by the Steam Extraction,at 150*-C., of a solution Ephedrine, Sulfuric acid, and Zinc Chloride ... to remove the Ketone as it is being produced, this Rxn also provides the methylammonium sulphate salt that can be basified to the methyl amine that is the second reagent that you will need...check Rhodium's website...this from the Time Capsule...circa 1976 to 1983...before the Spanish boys re-discovered the Emde Method...i.e.,the E/I/RP method... this worked for 50-years...that's how young I am)...What So Ever.For advice...PM me...and I'll ask my friend A.L.F. for the answer. It lives in the neighborhood...under a bridge, I think,...but it seems to be able to smell my beer when I pop the lid...what so ever...anyway, it always seems to show up when A HIVE Bee needs loves to talk about all of this.

callen & A.L.F.
(Hive Bee)
03-21-04 01:32
No 496376
      HCL in the Xtal matrix...I don't think so...     

My friend A.L.F stopped by today for a Cold One...when posed with this just giggled.Maybe it was after the fourth or fifth Cold One...I don't remember just now.
A.L.F. sezs," That's a crock of you slowly simmer the acidified Meth-Hcl-dH2O solution at 150*-F., place your NOSE above the evaporation vessel...and then WAFT(look up the meaning of the will prevent you from burning out yout NOstrils...Ha...Ha...Ha...) will definitely sense the presence of HCL being expelled from the solution into the air above the evap. vessel...that's the reason for the FAN blowing across the surface of the evap. vessel at low speed towards an open door or window, CAUTION: Anything that is made of Iron or Steel...such as your CD player or tape player, or as in my DRILL PRESS...will rust up like a motherfucker.Anyway,long before the solution completely evaporates...the presence of HCL will no longer be sensed by your NOSE. Hence, no more HCL is being driven off.So...forget that...and watch out for Katz.For more info...PM callen...not ME."smile

callen & A.L.F.
(Hive Bee)
03-21-04 01:49
No 496379
      The Hell...You Say...!     

A resent "BUST' in my small circle of freinds resulted in a LAB ASSAY (performed by the 'COPPERS')... analysis that resolved as 'CODEINE'...Damn...all it was was Ephedrine.- Hcl., plus Guafenesin...anything can be made real...on paper...can't it.mad

callen & A.L.F
(Hive Bee)
03-21-04 02:42
No 496389
      Meet the 'Kaho-ona...Ha...Ha...Ha!     

100*-C. to 110*-C...for a Long Wet Refluxc...150*-C. for a 'Quickie" 4-hr., Hot,Dry Rxn;...Not For Any Reason...Do you go above 150*-C.That would create many, many side-reaction products.

callen & A.L.F.
(Hive Bee)
03-21-04 03:21
No 496395
      OOp' omissiin,,,     

Sorry... when cooking the E,SO4, and ZnCl...the P2P must be removed as it is produced...a pressure cooker that can go to 25-LBS,at 150* -C. is required...i.e., you must steam distill the P2P as it is being produced...from the reaction vessel. For details...Pm me or do a search on Rhodium's site.Where is that Fuching Kat?

callen & A.L.F.
(Hive Bee)
03-21-04 04:02
No 496399
      So.a friend of my wife had an experience at BI-LO     

My wife's friend is shaped liked a pear,...has a 2-1/2 Ft. long poneytail, which is mostly gray.She is a Grandma.And looks like one. Not at all involved in this...all she does is work full time and a part-time job.No sex, no drugs, and no rock and roll.
 She went to a BI-LO grocery store to get a few things....a small grocery order.Among the purchses was one bottle of Iodine tincture, and two-three packs of kitchen matches,,,the cashier said to her,"Please wait here." She went off for a few minutes, and then returned.She cashed out my wife's friend .When "Grandma" arrived at the exit door...there stood the store 'MANAGER'.He stood there and watched as she went to her auto, got in and started it up, and backed up, and drove away.He got her License Plate number...and in association with the store all that's needed for a charge of"Intent to Manufacture Methamphetamine"....Gets you 20-YEARS here in Georgia, U/S.A...
Don't Worry about the Katz.

callen & A.L.F.
callen & A.L.F.