(Hive Bee)
06-15-03 20:40
No 440177
      New Straight to E -- a novel extraction tech.
(Rated as: excellent)

The following is for educational and informational purposes only.  It is not the posters intent that this information be used for anything that would be considered illegal or in violation of any international laws. The poster accepts no responsibility for any and all activities that may be carried out as a result of the information contained herein. Check your local, state and federal laws. The poster shall not be held liable and indemnified from impeachment for the use, misuse, injury, death, imprisonment or fellation due to the application of this information.

Extraction Technique: Straight to E --
A Novel Pill Extraction Technique

- Summary -

SWIVE is back with a new twist for producing clean pseudo HCL in high yields from an ever changing array of pills. It's not only water less like Straight to B, its simpler with no A/B at all. Its Straight to E or straight to the extraction. It is a simple extraction method that will bypass most of today’s modern adulterants and will return a very high yield of clean pseudo HCL. This can then be recrystallized or turned into free base to produce a pristine product. This method was written to be easily scalable and is very over the counter. Average yields have been 80% to 90% of clean pseudo HCL.

- Definitions -

In this write up SWIVE will use the phrase "for every box of pills used"
This stands for every box of 48 x 60mg, or 96 x 30mg, or 20 x 120mg or 10 x 240mg.

Text appearing in red denotes actions that should bee followed exactly for best results.

Text appearing in green denotes FAQS. (frequently asked questions)

- Materials -

Three beakers or other heat proof glassware containers
(approximately 200ml for every box of pills used)
One elemeyer flask or other heat proof glassware container
(approximately 200ml for every box of pills used)
One graduated cylinder 100ml -200ml or other liquid measuring device in mls
Two 5" glass funnels or plastic fuel funnels
Filter Paper or coffee filters
Glass stirring rod or bamboo skewers
Hot plate
Small fan
Small scale weighing in grams
Safety glasses, latex gloves
Thermometer that is scaled to at least 120 C

- Solvents -

91% - 99% Isopropyl Alcohol (drug store)
MEK Methyl Ethyl Ketone (paint / hardware store)
VM&P Naptha - no substitutions (paint / hardware store)
(Do Not use Colemans, pet ether, lighter fluid, etc.)
Xylene (paint / hardware store)

- Drying Aids -

Oven dried Epsom Salts or Washing Soda (drug / food store)
Salt (food store)

- Abstract of Procedure -

Make extraction fluid.
Place whole pills into beaker.
Add extraction fluid.
Heat to boiling , stirring until pills dissolve
Filter while hot into elemeyer flask.
Repeat two times.
Return combined extractions to clean beaker.
Add Xylene
Heat to 105 C to boil off alcohol.
Filter out pseudo HCL
Wash pseudo HCL with MEK and let dry.

- Standard Procedure -

01) For every box of pills used: combine the following solvents and
drying materials in a clean beaker and in the following order:

 -  70ml Isopropyl Alcohol
 -  70ml VM&P Naptha
 -  02 grams of salt
 -  04 grams of dried epsom salts or dried washing soda

02) Stir with a glass rod for a few minutes, then let settle for 10 minutes.
Depending on how much water was in the isopropyl alcohol to start with the
mixture will settle into 2 layers or 1 layer with damp solids at the bottom.

Why not use pre dried solvents to begin with? - that is perfectly ok if you have them,
but I have noticed that adding the isopropyl and naptha together almost always releases
some water no matter how dry they were ahead of time so I would not skip this step.

03) Filter this into the elemeyer flask leaving any solids or bottom liquid layer
behind and then transfer this solution into the second clean beaker.

04) Place whole pills in to the third clean beaker.

Why whole pills? Don’t I need to grind them up first? - no we are trying to keep loss
to a minimum and grinding is not necessary as the isopropyl / naptha mixture will
dissolve them very well.

05) Pour 1/3 solvent mixture over pills.

06) Place the beaker on the hotplate and bring to a boil using
medium hi heat. Use the small fan to keep vapors from accumulating.
Stir occasionally with a glass rod until pills have dissolved into powder.
Let boil for 1-2 minutes

07) Place a funnel with filter paper in to the elemeyer flask.
Filter the solvent mixture while hot leaving as much of the solids
in the beaker as possible.

08) Return any solids to the beaker and repeat steps 5 through 7
two times combining the extractions in to the elemeyer flask.

09) For every box of pills used add to the combined extractions:

 -  50ml Xylene
10) Transfer the extraction mixture back to the empty solvent beaker and
place the beaker on the hotplate. Bring to a boil using the small fan to keep vapors
from accumulating. Boil until the solution reaches 105 C.

11) Using a clean funnel and filter paper filter off the pseudo HCL while the
solution is hot.

12) Rinse the pseudo HCL with a generous amount of MEK while in the funnel.

13) Remove filter and filter cake from funnel and allow to dry completely.
(no more MEK smell)

14) Weight and enjoy, yield should be between 80% to 90%

Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
06-15-03 23:24
No 440198
      New Straight to E -- a novel extraction tech.     

In swibn's neck of the woods(down under),VM&P Naptha - Xylene, are basically unheard of. What else can swibn use? Or do they have another name here?
Will this technique combat the orange gakk and the new pink variation??

(Hive Bee)
06-16-03 05:29
No 440230

There are no substitutes for VM&P Naptha or Xylene. They were choosen for there unique properties. Substituting will change the final result. Both are widely available on the internet from hundreds of retailers.
I have had great success against orange gakk and the new pink variation, but it is impossible to test all variations. Please post your results so we start to collect more data.

Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
(Of Counsel)
06-16-03 05:46
No 440232
      How to do this one     

There is a way to do this technique. Do it EXACTLY THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN.

Do this ONE TIME just like it is written.

This technique, done by the book ONE TIME will answer every question you have about it. If you don't have a thermometer go buy one. Do it just like DA MAN says.

Geezmeister went out and bought four boxes of white sixties. He obediently followed the procedure, since VE would not answer any of his silly little questions, being smartassed enough to know the procedure would answer them for him.

First time, less than two hours start to finish...well, less the absolute drying time for all the MEK to evaporate off.

Yield: 98.3%  Go figure. Total of 9.6 grams of fine white pseudo HCL crystals just like the ones Geez has been harvesting from the xylene clean pseudo precipitation technique. Mind you, I haven't reacted these yet. I have not recrystalized these yet. I am as dubious as I can be because frankly, this is too good to be true, and you probably know my attitude about things that are too good to be true. Most of them are.

I poured the greenish-yellowish rinse MEK into the jar with the naptha/xylene and it looks just like the solvents look after I do xylene, naptha, MEK and acetone boils before extracting. And I already have that pseudo HCl in the filter drying. IT LOOKS FINE.

My mind tells me that VideoEditor has done it again. He has combined the weaknesses of a couple of solvents with the strength of another, anticipated the timing and use, and combined several different concepts in ways they have not been combined before. The use of naptha as a gakk solvent during the extraction of the pseudo HCl by the IPA alcohol is a stroke of genius I would never have struck upon. The added benefit of using the naptha to drive out the remnants of moisture from the IPA is brilliant. The yield leaves me with only one thought, and that is why the hell I let him figure this out. Man, I wish I could have claimed I thought this one up.

VideoEditor deserves the Nobel Prize in foilant foiling and is hereby nominated for the position of Professor Emeritus and Department Chairman, College of Extractomania, Hive University.

You outdid yourself again, my man. My hat is off to you!

Mostly harmless
06-16-03 09:29
No 440260
      some kind of voodo charm....     


You flat out rule...the psuedo came CHARGING out at what the doctor ordered. SWIMFINN wasn't makin it with the tyvek wrap and psuedo precip for whatever reason...newbee blues SWIM has...or had.

This is so rock solid SWIM was able to use the microwave instead of hotplate and use .471 teaspoons as 2G salt since SWIM forgot the scale (of course) then construct a crude scale of spoons joined with rubber bands teetering over the back of a butcher knife to measure the epsoms against the salt for correct ratio.

SWIM gave a little extra juice on the first pull to compensate for the pills bloating due to what SWIM perceived to be the microwave cooking pills a bit faster/different than a hotplate. SWIMFINN not the right SWIM to take a SWAG as to what changes would be correct when substituting microwave so maybe another wiser bee will hitch his wagon on to your train and provide this insight.

<-----SWAG (scientific wild ass guess)---->

This dream was 2 box(20 each)generic 120's (take aim at a bullseye logo and sounds like parkit.) Couldn't get the yield due to leaving the scale at home. (of course!)

SWIM did use tyvek for filtering/sponge with charmin plug backup. The sponge use was discovered when SWIM flattened a piece over the pile, pressed it, lifted and held with back to fan to quickly dry. Then when the tyvek drys just flip the ends together (folding it in the middle) and rub together to drop out the dry psuedo that was clinging to the it. No loss of psuedo at all due to filter issues and works like a quick dry sponge.

Does anyone think the tyvek wrap would be an issue? Sure would make it nearly zero mess...

If SWIVE wants the formulation specs on those 120's SWIMFINN can do...

For the next 3 weeks there are no roomates to worry about for if only SWIM can get a handle on the post workup issues there will be one very busy little newbee.

SWIM can't thank SWIVE (and SWIVE helpers)nearly enough; whoever you are - you are loved! wink

Video killed the radio star...
06-16-03 16:33
No 440297
      let her be the first to propose...     

VE, will you marry me? smile

she says that it works beautifully! she also thinks that this will bee popular among stim bees by far, given the short duration of the extraction process and the outstanding yield.

she says that she started with 4 96-ct. boxes of gaak-filled red hots just for giggles. she followed instructions exactly thinking to herself (i'm sure) that this would never work. lo and behold, at the xylene step, out grow an abundance of yellow xtls. the M.E.K. rinse in the funnel took care of the yellow color. she then followed with 2 xtlizations ala geezmeister.

then put it to the ultimate test. yummy she says. i really wanted to give you a kiss for her but since i can't, i'll just say that she gives the utmost thanks to swive. swive is very generous to have shared that with us.

(Hive Bee)
06-17-03 01:13
No 440375

so you done it again . thank you . like geez said hats off

I'd rather be hated for who I am then liked for who I am not
(Hive Bee)
06-17-03 07:13
No 440456
      V_E: I want to have your child!     

Must say that this version has by far less stench and oder compaired to the previous versions!

I think that VE is a discrunteled employee for one of the major decongestiant companies, that or just a swell BEE who's deserving of my hat being tipped and a bow being taken to.  More than likely its the later scenario.

A Terrible though could have a Terribly long carrier
06-17-03 07:34
No 440459
      Top Dog     

Without a dought you are the Top Dog. Swim just came back from a friends place and he wanted me to tell you that you have earned your place with the few who are considered GODS. YOU are the mutha F@#king man!!!!!!smile
(Hive Bee)
06-17-03 11:20
No 440495

Thanks VE, works like a charm!

It wasn't Me!
(Hive Bee)
06-17-03 11:46
No 440500

I had some problems getting some red pills to work, but the gakked 120's ran good.
The red pills I had were the free samples the dr sometimes gives out if your sick. The red was still on the pills after the 2nd boil in extration fluid.  If I get more of them bastards, I'll grind,em first. Perhaps a tolly soak if there's povodone.

(Hive Addict)
06-17-03 12:04
No 440504

ISO IPA works wonders with PEG but does anybee have feedback on dry matrix formulated redhots containing iron oxide?

Also.. Are NP presoaks or boils necessary for pills containing povidone?

Anhydrous milk sugars?

Or is this new extraction technique "Universal" applying to ALL pills and formulations regardless of inactives?
(Hive Bee)
06-17-03 14:16
No 440516
      Some answers     

hey Coitus can you gimme a few more details on how they failed? when? where? how?

hey Scottydog

Dry matrix formulated redhots containing iron oxide? ok so far. Are NP presoaks or boils necessary for pills containing povidone? No. Anhydrous milk sugars? No problem so far and yes its as "Universal" as it can be.

The only prep that bees have reported are some like to de-red the redhots first. Use the acetone and minimal water method by dwarfer.

Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
06-17-03 16:43
No 440534
      no mnkyboy, he's mine     

re: redhots:

i mentioned that coitus' different outcome was puzzling. she said that maybe it was not so puzzling after all. when she stated that she had used 4 boxes of 96-ct redhots in this new technique, she failed to mention that she had de-redded them prior to putting them through this new extraction process. so that may explain coitus' problems. she apologizes for this oversight.
06-17-03 18:12
No 440558

Swim used 2 boxes of genaric 120's and ended up with 4.3
grams out of 4.8

Swim rinsed with hot acetone instead of MEK

Whats next? Straight to M-eth?

Maybe drip some solvated electrons into the E juice?
06-17-03 18:58
No 440566
      novel my #$&     

VE just wanted to says thanx for the ass kikin write up this is the best overall method ive ever seen.your briallance always amazes me.cant wait to see wat you got up your sleeve next time.

               Meth Its whats for dinner!
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
06-17-03 21:39
No 440591

To the rating fairy: VE's post IS rated as excellent incase you havn't noticed.
 Good job VE and a damn good idea as well...

Tighten Up!  (UH)
06-18-03 02:19
No 440622
      Paracetamol/ triprolidine     

Will this technique work on pills with paracetamol and/ or triprolidine? What about liquid gel caps?

Looks great, can't wait to try it.
06-18-03 04:12
No 440638
      all i can find is MEKP     

Having a hard time finding MEK, found MEKP (methyl ethyl ketone peroxide)
i take it that is no good, anyhting eles i could use instead of MEK
(Hive Bee)
06-18-03 06:37
No 440665
      SWIM will have to agree on the low yield from...     

SWIM will have to agree on the low yield from red hots, but had exceptional returns with the 120's.  Damn, and just when SWIM had given up on the 120's, VE has to go and pull this one out of his hat!

A Terrible though could have a Terribly long carrier
(Hive Bee)
06-18-03 11:00
No 440764
      red hots     

Can you please define low yeild on red hots in % terms. Swive was averaging about 75%-80% on reds and up to 99% on generic white 60's. Also are the reds completely dried after the de-red process? they may contain a sig amount of water/ acetone if not dried. This would effect the extraction.

Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
(Of Counsel)
06-18-03 18:19
No 440832
      Alls well that ends well     

MnkyBoy: The proof is in the final product! Since the 120's tend to be the proving grounds for most new gakks, they are an excellent test of how well the method isolates the pseudo from the newer gakks we've been up against. I look forward to your results!

Your report of higher yields than we are used to from these pills is indeed excellent news!

Mostly harmless
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
06-18-03 18:53
No 440841
      Micro bees     

For the bees that will be trying a microwave to do this bee careful, Alcohol will superheat just like water and disturbing the surface of a superheated liquid could result in serious burns.. I believe this has been covered before with H20 as example for the ones who don't know what superheating is or how dangerous it can be try running a search here for more info...

Tighten Up!  (UH)
(Of Counsel)
06-18-03 20:56
No 440859

qwerty: if you cannot acquire any MEK, use acetone. They have very similar characteristics. They are not identical, however, and MEK seems to offer some advantages in this application.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
06-18-03 22:04
No 440867
      Micro's & Acetone and more     

The major differences between MEK and acetone are:

-- Yeild --
Psuedo is not soluable in MEK
Psuedo is slightly soluable in acetone

-- Cleaning --
Both are ketones, but I believe that MEK is more aggressive in this application. MEK dissolves just about any kind of plastic, most epoxies, PVC and rubber.


MEK Health Hazard Data

LD50-LC50 Mixture: TLV: 200 PPM
Route Of Entry - Inhalation: YES
Route Of Entry - Skin: YES
Route Of Entry - Ingestion: YES
Carcinogenicity - NTP: NO
Carcinogenicity - IARC: NO
Carcinogenicity - OSHA: NO

Ahh I new the "can I mircowave it?" question would come up soon.  My reason for not using a microwave is that it is critical you monitor the temperature as you boil off the alcohol.  I do not have a thermometer that works in my micro so the hotplate became the best bet. Why is it critical to monitor? We need to hit that magic temp of 105c and you cannot just eyball it. 95c and 105c visually will look the same. Also as the temperature rises from the alcohol evaporating, the rate of increase is not linear. It accelerates. VM&P Naptha has a boiling range from about 95C all the way to over 220C so if you heat it too fast, it is possible to overshoot 105c and start to fry the psuedo. I could not control it well enough in my micro to be consistent.


Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
06-18-03 22:15
No 440869
      qwerty, MEKP     

Qwerty, if you haven't checked on the net or read MSDS papers on MEKP, stay away.  Would be very dangerous and very bad idea.  I used to work with MEKP daily at a fiberglass shop.
(Hive Bee)
06-18-03 22:49
No 440871
      acetone tests     

Swim rinsed exactly 1 gram of pseudo in 200ml of hot dry
acetone, panned off then evaporated the acetone only to
discover around a milligram of pseudo [.0011g]

Swim also tried with non-dried acetone and discovered
nearly 10mg [.009g]

So if you cannot aquire mek or just dont want the extra can
of solvent in your lab like swim then anhydrous actone
seems to bee a great alternative unless a mg per gram loss
bothers you.

Swim keeps only 3 solvents: acetone for flashing/washing
crystals, vm&p naptha for this great extraction, and xylene
for this great extraction and a/b extractions.
06-19-03 00:17
No 440896
      Winding to E     

Ahh I knew the "can I mircowave it?" question would come up soon.

SWIM wishes one thing in each process wouldn't fubar SWIM's dream...

The first run at STE was killer...there was problem with rxn however which is SWIM fault for not getting better ballon (however, hadn't planned to reflux it over 6 hours), still have the wad of rp/i2 (?) that looks like clay and the "product" never appeared despite numerous attempts at "finding" it after ker-flunking it. See Post 439028 (mickyfinn: "Curbshot Nano Redeux...", Stimulants)

So, SWIM sets that aside and grabs 8G worth of 120's and promptly falls asleep just before the extraction morning all seems to be welll when the psuedo starts charging out as indicated.

(<inser action="the popping sound you hear is that of SWIM's head going UP his ass." />

To be fair to our hero, not known for world class huffing, he has been forced to stay in close proximity to the microwave which has been eminating fumes for days now. There is air flow of sorts but the close proximity of neighbors precludes outside venting)

SWIM gets great idea to add more broken glass to the pyrex bowl to keep a more even boil flowing, thus staying at 105 longer/easier and pulling all the psuedo. Well, SWIM not clearly thinking the process through as SWIM used NORMAL broken glass.

YEP: SWIM wonders why all of the sudden SWIM's cooking popcorn....POP!  POP!  popopopPOP!

Well, our hero couldn't seem to see that 2+2=4 so he proceeded to:

1) added more naptha (ran out of VM&P)
2) added more ISO
3) transferred liquid to different containers
4) probably more stupidity but you get the picture

(<inser action="the popping sound you hear is that of SWIM's head COMING OUT his ass and that of his psuedo bursting into the void" /)

An idea dawns on SWIM, then grows to an epiphany and ultimately turns into the realization that SWIM just FUBAR'd the UNFUBARable. SWIM put normal and colored glass in with his boriscilicate pieces. Yield low in the 1-2G maybe...

So now time coming when SWIM needs to have (sh*t=together) so he obtains 96 and 48 Red 60's. He'd been sticking with the white's till now but since he just saw that the 60's can be de-redded with acetone/denatured he figured to try them. Well, it disintegrated the 48 walfred and left red on the 96. So he added DH20 now he's left with some orange tint mass. This is OG he presumes? If these are de-redded then he will proceed with STE and return after this is completed.

In the meantime, SWIM would welcome URL or indication of what he should use to look up information that will solve his multiple problem subset.

1)Can he toss back the rp/i2 clay with some psuedo and re-fire to reflux for 36 hours?
2)The results of titrating rxn fluid and extracting supposed final yield that has been sitting from a previous dream is crystalized in two different glass dishes but SWIM doesn't know what it is? Doesn't appear to be final product...can this be re-titrated? Attempted to wash one with acetone and it's not proceeding very well....

SWIM thinks if he can just see what each rabbit looks like at each phase of the magic act he would have a pretty good handle on things.

To anyone who would help SWIM (or has thus far) he is deeply in your debt.

The big ones eat the little ones, the little ones got to be fast...
06-19-03 00:21
No 440897
      weight of powder     

swims can't wait to try.swims was about to do a stb extrac.
with 13 boxes of 120's when he spilled a handful not sure how much in weight.
can anybody tell swims how much the popular generic 120's
wweigh,so he can figure out how many boxes he has?
I need to know how much 20 (120's) weigh?

If ya think its' butter, butt its not, its ...
06-19-03 00:55
No 440902
      thank you jacked     

my point exactly in an earlier post when a few jumped in my shit
when any liquid has reached it's own boiling point, by being heated in a microwave,and theres no evidence of boiling ie no bubbles or oxygen being released.
if you let it sit undisturbed for a few minutes it will be ok to remove from the micro.

If ya think its' butter, butt its not, its ...
(Hive Bee)
06-19-03 01:44
No 440910
      SUPERHEATED when any liquid has reached it's...     

when any liquid has reached it's own boiling point, by being heated in a microwave,and theres no evidence of boiling ie no bubbles or oxygen being released. If you let it sit undisturbed for a few minutes it will be ok to remove from the micro.

Ahhhhh it may be ok to remove from the microwave but it aint done.  Sorry but some things just were'nt made to bee done in a hurry.  If you have superheated the alcohol its not all evaporated so here we just did three bad things...

We overshot 105c
We still have alcohol in the mixture.
We are gonna let it cool down too much before filtering (because its superheated).

Really if I thought the mirco was the best choice I would of put it in, but its not. The mixture needs to come up to our target temp in an (external heat) normal amount of time to complete all the processes going on inside the beaker. Remember that mixture is evaporating, precipitating, re-crystalizing and scrubbing all at the same time. It needs the time to work properly. Nuke it and results will be inconsistent yeilds or gakked psuedo or you may get lucky . . .

I think the Geezmeister said it best:

There is a way to do this technique.
Do this ONE TIME just like it is written.

no solvent switching, no microwaving
if doing Red Hots make sure they are completely dried after de-red'n


Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
06-19-03 02:20
No 440915
      low yield from redhots     

she doesn't understand this discussion of low yields regarding red hots. her yield was wonderful. she tells me that she extracted the most she ever has with this process than at any other time whenever she has tackled the ultra gaaky type of red hots.
06-19-03 02:50
No 440923
      lucky pull     

SWIM's first run in the micro was performed watching the fluid for when the psuedo started crashing out. The solutions was boiling slowly at 40-50% power and then the crash began, temp was quickly taken...and it was immediately pulled and sent to charmin filter followed by MEK. Clean pull first time...second was less so.
06-19-03 03:20
No 440930
      superheated post     

video i was'nt even talking about this method or post i agree you did'nt mention it in the post. i apologize for bringing it up
i brought it up by replying to jacked's post simply verifying that superheating can be dangerous again i aplolgize to you
i did reply to one of your post considering the weight of generic 120's.

If ya think its' butter, butt its not, its ...
(Hive Bee)
06-19-03 07:35
No 440954

Santa wasnt bustin on ya dude, it was just a great example to make a point. lol

Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
06-19-03 07:54
No 440959
      thank you video.. keep those useless narco swine types struggling and
have made a giant leap for our cause.
NOW, swim
has problems with microwaving --can my trusty corning hotplate and visionware work as well for him if I let him borrow them?

also,IS there a sub for xylene!
swim can't handle the noxious fumes it gives off--ANYTHING-->but xylene---the slightest whiff and swim has real problems for days. And, yes swim has fume conrol, albeit not a full enclosed hood--yet!
thanks again for a kickass writeup and procedure. I do not have it down to the degree you do (near 100%) but damn is it
a great help to my sinus plagued grandmother who prefers the best

Now maybe swim can try the pure tyvek filter method as well to see if he gets those nice translucent needlesthat way
seem to think your way will become sop for many

what would we do without the HIVE !

...visit beautiful mexico
(Of Counsel)
06-19-03 08:09
No 440961
      Using the hotplate     

I have what I consider to be a good intuitive understanding of why these solvents work together and understand completely why VideoEditor wants to heat to 105°C. While this method does precipitate the pseudo HCl in a solution of naptha and xylene, remember that the gakks are present in the solution with the pseudo.

In the microwave xylene clean technique, I was polishing up some previously extracted pseudo HCl. The bulk of the gakk was gone, and the method was used as a substitute for the first of two recrystalizations. The xylene could hold the gakk because there was not much gakk in the mix to start with. I cautioned that it worked with pseudo that was fairly clean already.

The other point to keep in mind is when the pseudo precipitates out of the solution. It precipitates out before anything else does. That means if there is a bigger gakk load, you want that gakk held in solution as long as you can. Keeping the solvent hot does that. VideoEditor figured out at by the time the naptha/xylene mix got to 105°C the alcohol would be gone but the solvent hot enough to hold the gakk in solution while the pseudo HCl was filtered out. You MUST filter while HOT. Get the pseudo out of the solution before gakk starts coming out, and rinse what might be in there with MEK.

This technique seems to me to be very well thought out. It seems to work very well. I really suggest to each person interested in this method to do it as written a few times and get a feel for it before you attempt to improve on it.
There is, in a way, a philosophy to this method that appeals to me-- a little bit of Zen, perhaps.

I have been fooled before with new techniques and discovered after my inital enthusiasm that they were not quite as effective as I first thought. Straight to Bee was like this-- PEG was still present in the pseudo unless it was taken out before the a/b. The tyvek membrane microwave extraction seemed very promising but far from universal. PEG in particular seemed to come over with the pseudo-- and PEG at the time was the new problem in the pills. The high yield of pseudo from this method gives me some pause and will until we have final results to compare. That is not a knock on this approach at all. Its is perhaps caution based on past experience. My hunch is this one works as advertised. I think we will know soon enough. I also think we should at least find out if it works as written before we start modifying it.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
06-19-03 10:43
No 440982
      Microwaves would only heat the alcohol though     

it is possible to overshoot 105c and start to fry the psuedo.

Since the microwaves do not have any effect on non polar solvents, then wouldn't the heat of the solution stop rising as soon as the alcohol boiled off?  The alcohol would be the only thing in there that would heated by the microwaves.  Therefore, wouldn't it bee impossible to overheat it? 

However, it would most likely be underheated, no matter how long it was in the micro.  Which would cause the gaak to precipate before you have a chance to filter the pseudo out right? 
Makes sense and besides, so far it works as written(on hotplate)anyways. 

I still am a little weiry about the micro after my last bumping episode so the hotplate suits me fine.

It wasn't Me!
06-19-03 15:44
No 441012
      Well, I agree with Geez.     

Well, I agree with Geez. This is defanitly a wonderful break-through in pill extraction. but I'm still going to be skepticle, but as far as simplicity it don't get any easier! :) I just want to wait until the str8 2 E has been beaten with a hammer maybe i can freeload some good info wink
(Hive Bee)
06-20-03 08:26
No 441234

We'll givr-a-try.

FUNNY...used to be TOLUENE, now its xylene.
used to be ACETONE, now its M.E.K.

and back in the day, vm&p would get you a weeks subscription to flame magazine, possibly earning a roast from 'flaming maggot' himself... My how the times change. (sigh)

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, grin, grin, say no more, aye?
06-20-03 10:55
No 441257

Can this be used on pfed sulfates?
06-20-03 13:53
No 441291

yeah, I am more inclined towards the corning hotplate/st myself as I feel I have better and more precise control
with it
After a microwave induced mini- ursh. incident I shy away from them now
Yeah, they only heat the water based but I am sure you can get it to 105 as necessary
though, with my luck with microwaves, I would overshoot and ruin it all
Just wish there was a sub for xylene in the v. e. process
will check it out shortly
(Hive Bee)
06-20-03 15:39
No 441304
      Re: maybe i can freeload some good info We...     

 maybe i can freeload some good info

We cant be having any of that around here...Nothing would ever get done if that was the attitude.

Guess that SWIM shouldn't say anything about low yields with the reds...SWIM DIDN'T follow directions...They weren't de-redded. 

Data will follow soon to back up SWIVE's new claim to fame.

A Terrible though could have a Terribly long carrier
(Of Counsel)
06-20-03 17:15
No 441315

Only if you then freebase the pseudo sulfate you extract by the method. You do not want to react the sulfate form.

Mostly harmless
06-20-03 18:03
No 441327
      Just Fuckin Great!!!     

If SWIM can improve his 60% to 70% returns up to 90% or better on his pfeds, shit,,,, let SWIM think, is it worth doing???? thanks for your effort in a  better extraction Video,,,now SWIM just has to get to the store and get some new shiot and do it!!!!Like a kid in a candy store,,and he really likes candy!!!,, cant wait to try it!!!!
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
06-21-03 00:43
No 441406
      The warning came from coffee     

I had just heated a cup of coffee and when I poured the sugar in the fucking cup emptied it self burning my hand, real good I might add.. I know some bees are nuke freaks and didn't want anyone to hurt themselves straying from the writeup... Something we all do from time to time..

Tighten Up!  (UH)
06-21-03 01:06
No 441413
      a nervous question     

If it sais sudoE hcl + 2.5mg triwhatever on SWICS $2 a box 60' aint gunna have any sudo sulphate in it right? it would have to say pseudo sulfate on the box right?
(Hive Bee)
06-21-03 01:27
No 441422

If a microwave is the "I want to use one just because...JUST BECAUSE!" choice, there is some info on the way one can use one safely.
Jacked got burned by coffee, so think about a burn causing you to douche your "lab" with 50 to 80 bucks worth of dissolved psudo. after cleanup your scavenged psudo puts you back in the 40-60% range of yeild, and now it has bacon grease, wheat chex bits, roach turds etc.
What is it about "follow the directions exactly as written" that causes people to have a "insert my way here" attack?!?!?!

The man said use a non sparking hotplate, PERIOD.
Hey just for the pure adventure of doing it exactly as written, try this: DO THE EXTRACTION, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. Of course that is the challenge right? Following the directions?

To help you stubborn ones, try it like this:

If it says, "Use 4 quarts" say "nah, I think a GALLON is the way to go here!"

If instructed to obtain "6 feet of vinyl tube" say
"Probably better to go with CLEAR vinyl, with a length of Oh, 72 inches"

If the right way is reported as "use a hotplate" then spit into the wind and instead try a "flameless plug-in, variable temperture control CARAFFE WARMER"
Presto, ya bucked conventional thinking, yer outside the box, and ya did it your way.

Now the pillows all have a tag saying "do not remove under pena..."tonguecrazyblush

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, grin, grin, say no more, aye?
(Hive Bee)
06-21-03 01:41
No 441430
      Re: If it sais sudoE hcl + 2.5mg triwhatever...     

If it sais sudoE hcl + 2.5mg triwhatever on SWICS $2 a box 60' aint gunna have any sudo sulphate in it right? it would have to say pseudo sulfate on the box right?

No, pseudoephedrine.HCl does not have any pseudoephedrine sulfate

(Hive Bee)
06-21-03 01:42
No 441431

HCl= HCl
sulfate= sulfate

Its agin the law to write HCl when it is REALLY sulfate, and

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, grin, grin, say no more, aye?
06-21-03 03:17
No 441450
      microwave not recommended for straight to E     

SWIMFINN used the micro cause he can't get his frickin' mits on a lab type/quality hotplate...<long sad story with cello (in minor key: say....Dm)accompaniment deleated>

He used a 125ml rb flask with 75 ml of antifreeze at the rear interior of the unit along with a sizeable amount of small boriscilicate (sp?) glass pieces(until he lost his fricin' head and added regular glass but...SWIM digress) and then used a power setting of 40% (sometimes 50%) to bring the solution up to temp in a 2 quart pyrex microwaveable cassarole dish.

There was zero bumping and smooth boiling (up to the point at which SWIM lost effective cognative function)...and the psuedo came charging out. VE indicated it is not the highest yielding or most effectively controlled methodology and that is a subjective choice for SWIM to make based on local prevailing conditions. (Wait for someday or deal with less yield...)

SWIM won't bother bees with issues if they develop should he choose to micro S2E again, however, as it is clearly indicated now (and reasonably inferred then) that S2E VIA MICROWAVE IS NOT RECOMMENDED due to the issues VE (and crew) ran into in beta testing.

"flameless plug-in, variable temperture control CARAFFE WARMER"

Cool, didn't think of that...(----> off to look) but not because SWIM wants to be different...just must find alternative for the present.

yes I think there were five good men here yesterday, (but they were asked to leave)
(Hive Addict)
06-21-03 20:11
No 441569
      Free while supplies last!     

VE: I wanted to wait on replying until reaching a destination to employ this method, but the intended destination is looking rather grim.
Ibee can always foresee the success rates based on other worker bees responses, so I'll have to just hope that when and if the Kidz get to a safe location that this method is still effective.
The hardest part about being away from the lab is the inability to dabble with the newest formulations!
Congrats on brakethrough!
Multiple solvent combo's seemed to be the likely gaak kicker, but proper ratio's and dryness are the keys to success it appears.
This is why the IDEA method worked to a degree, all except for the pfed being taken UP in the polar amounts in the alcohol!
Ibee really wished he'd had some help with the tweeking of that solvent combo as it might have spared The Kidz and P2M much headbanging when trying to scale it UP to 55 gallon drum capacities(heeheeeheeesmile). Slight exaggeration there of course!
Anyway...always the optimistic one, Ibee looks forward to employing this technique you've provided us bees with!
Hopefully it won't bee before they throw the next curveball in the mix!
Great Work as always man!
Keep It UP!
Peace of the REaction

Empty the prisons: make room for Congress!
(Hive Addict)
06-22-03 10:38
No 441661
      Scaling up     

Swim is very close to his 1st imaginary, theoretical and slightly deluded dream with the novel extraction technique.

Upon completion of the solvent drying stage it has become obvious that ratios come to exactly 1/2 of a 1 quart canning jar per pull (x3) per 10 boxes of pills.  Edit: (For the 50/50 ISO IPA and Naptha mix)

1 full quart for every 20 boxes.

Swim will have his own feedback soon to follow...

If people "who are not us" continue to dream as a team, they can ALL continue to liberate the precursor.

Perrigogo did you say? laugh

Swimming with sharks and slithering with snakes
(Hive Bee)
06-22-03 16:08
No 441694
      Good Job VE!!! SWIBD says that he's looking...     

Good Job VE!!!
SWIBD says that he's looking forward to trying it. But first, he has a couple of questions:

VE's: The mixture needs to come up to our target temp in an (external heat) normal amount of time to complete all the processes going on inside the beaker.

About how long should a bee take to get the temp up to 105C (he's using a hotplate)? Ten minutes? Thirty minutes? Sixty minutes?
How long is a "normal" amount of time? (SWIBD wants to make sure that he gives the IPA plenty of time to boil off.)

Did I understand correctly that the STE gets rid of both PEG and trip?

mickyfinn: SWIMFINN used the micro cause he can't get his frickin' mits on a lab type/quality hotplate

My GUESS is that most bees aren't using an official "lab type" hotplate. When SWIBD tried the STB, a hotplate like this one seemed to work just fine. It should work great for the STE too. 

Wally World sells hot plates for VERY cheap. (Wally's is a little different than this one, but it still works

And if you want to get away from the "helpful" neighbors while extracting/cooking (because of the stinky fumes etc.), you can get a DC-->AC power converter that plugs into your car's cigarrette lighter. They don't cost too much. With one of these a bee can dream ANYWHERE. Set everything up on a fold-up table and you're ready to GO! (with your car windows rolled up so your car won't get "stunk up").
With the simplicy and quickness of VE's awesome STE, SWIBD said that he's thinking about extracting a batch of p-fed in the car while driving to work for his morning commute!shocked (just joking, of course)
(Stoni's sexual toy)
06-22-03 16:33
No 441697
      That looks like a hot coil, not a hot plate.     

That looks like a hot coil, not a hot plate. You cannot evenly heat a flask with it.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
(Hive Bee)
06-22-03 17:07
No 441702
      That looks like a hot coil, not a hot plate.     

That looks like a hot coil, not a hot plate. You cannot evenly heat a flask with it.

You're right. To overcome the uneven heating problems SWIBD puts a pot (1/2 full) of Canola oil on top of the coil, and using a ghetto ring stand, he's able to evenly heat (he thinks) his flasks (for the rxn) by partially suspending the flask into the oil bath. When heating a beaker, he drops enough marbles (or cut pieces of wire hanger, etc.) into the pot to entirely cover the bottom of the pot, and keep the flask off the bottom, and then heats away. The marbles provide a "flat" surface for the beaker to sit on. The marbles also keep the beaker a little further away from the direct heat of the coils, preventing uneven heating.
He's thinking about trying vegable shortening instead of canola oil because of the way it convieniently re-solidifies (mostly) between uses. (Less risk of accidental spilling)
This method seems to work fine for SWIBD, but he's a newbee so if he's wrong, he'd love to hear any

PEG? Trip? Length of time before bringing to a boil?
(Hive Bee)
06-22-03 17:28
No 441706
      Hot times     

About how long should a bee take to get the temp up to 105C (he's using a hotplate)? Ten minutes? Thirty minutes? Sixty minutes?

Its almost impossible to answer as it depends on so many variables including the volume of liquid you are dealing with. Just increase the heat gradually and dont think about it too hard.  It will start boiling around 70c-80c and will increase non linearly from there.

as far as hotplates go try:

Post 420074 (Prepuce: "Don't use a hotplate for boiling solvents!", Stimulants)
Post 426781 (superman: "heating mantle vs. hotplate", Chemicals & Equipment)
Post 171865 (wavetule: "heating source", Chemicals & Equipment)

Bottom line heating flammable liquids is dangerous, bee prepared.

Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
06-22-03 19:14
No 441721
      a pan     

Swim sometimes recrystallizes at home were he has coiled burners on the stove top. he Sits a coated frying pan on the coils and his beaker sitting ontop of that.. It spreads the heat with nothing else added. It has worked without busting a beaker for a couple years, now recrystallizing temps don't reach 105c so bare in mind this when reading my post..
E-bay is were to look for a Hot plate, Swim got one with a stirrer built in, a Corning with a ceramic top, I think he paid about 40 or 50 us dollars for it..

Tighten Up!  (UH)
(Hive Bee)
06-23-03 03:00
No 441801
      coating on Jacked's frying it teflon?     

he Sits a coated frying pan on the coils and his beaker sitting ontop of that.. It spreads the heat with nothing else added. It has worked without busting a beaker for a couple years, now recrystallizing temps don't reach 105c so bare in mind this when reading my post..

SWIM wanted to know what is the coating that is on the frying pan? SWIM has a 10x10 teflon coated flat surface cooking pan with handle (probably a stovetop pancake/bacon grill) that would sit nicely on top of such a hot coil plate. It appears that this would provide sufficient cover to avoid any spark issue from the cheap heating element. If used with a fan blowing the fumes away from the area and another pulling them up into the range it should be adequate until the arrival of a lab hotplate.

The weather's getting warmer now...that the trees are all cleared
(Hive Bee)
06-23-03 03:23
No 441805
      Maybee acetone should bee avoided here     

Swim purchased a different brand of acetone than before,
dried it then used it to rinse off some of those lovely STE
needles and before swim's eyes, at least 70% of the pseudo
needles disolved.

Swim thinks washing the pseudo in boiling xylene works
06-23-03 05:39
No 441837
      Teflon pans     

SWIM has used a teflon frying pan on the coil stove top as a hot plate and it works great. He used to use an oil bath as well but the pan by itself has proven to be robust for all temps required so far and is a lot cleaner! All solvent fumes are piped away down the drain so sparks aren't really an issue.
(Hive Bee)
06-23-03 06:01
No 441843

SwiJD advises that the mgmt of a certain MAJOR paint chain, and not a little euroboy, is in the habit of "cutting" many store-packed solvents with alcohol...

separate the subtle from the gross...
(Hive Bee)
06-23-03 07:21
No 441858
      Swim used this same acetone to wash some meth...     

Swim used this same acetone to wash some meth and it did
not disolve any meth one bit.

Maybee the last brand was tainted with toluene or
(Hive Addict)
06-23-03 08:56
No 441879
      Some imaginary feedback     

Swim fell into one of his insomnambulistic trips and hasn't (as of yet) dreamed of adding the xylene and after two pulls on 20 boxes of perrigogo 120's has 1/3 of a whistlxr carafe filled with what appears to bee a pristine pseudo "slushee" wink

The pseudo does not charge out after the xylene stage at 105°C but rather after the 50/50 IPA/Naptha 2 minute boil and filter (as it cools to room temperature)  Edit: After further dreaming, actually both are true! Pseudo HCL is highly soluable in hot IPA so when the alcohol has completely evaporated, the pseudo mysteriously re-appears in the Xylene. Temperature controlling its soluability if the alcohol is still present.

An extraction with a "built in" recrystalization. laugh

He imagines that it has some gakk in it and the xylene will cleanse it further? From the looks of the needles settling on the bottom of the carafe, is the xylene step even necessary? Maybe just for pillstock containing povidone?

There is no possible way to get a yield guestimate at this point but it will not bee too far off in the near future.

3 whistlxr carafes.

1 to dry the solvents, 1 to do the pill boils, and the 3rd with a funnel and charmin plug for HOT filtering.

Multiple canning jars to store or temporarily hold the dried solvent mix prior to pill boils etc...

Swim was going to dream of using a canning jar to filter into but feared that it may shatter due to the extreme temps.

A carafe works great for 20 boxes of pills.

Wouldn't recommend going any higher per coffee pot at one given time.

The fluids and pills filled the pot to the 3/4 mark...

So far so good!

The first pull with the 50/50 juice got pretty much every thing there was to get. The 2nd a tiny bit more. He has not pulled a 3rd time and fears it may bee a waste of time. 2 pulls may bee sufficient.

The shit settles EXCELLENT and FAST

The 1st pull had quite a bit of pill sediment in the filter, the 2nd pull practically nothing.

Stainless steel spoon works great to spoon the sediment out and back into the carafe.

Swis continued to use the same funnel and plug but recommends that a bee might bee better off having 3 of them lined up with plugs already pre-wet with the juice and ready to rock. A fresh one for each pull.

Swis used a dual hot-coil from Wally (if using a carafe don't forget the trivet) with a box fan blowing over the top and an open door for ventilation.

The pharmaceutical companies owe Swim in a major way, them greedy bastards!

Some two for one deals wouldn't hurt. crazy

Hope this helps the newbees. cool

Gotta love this place/ Gotta respect VE

More to follow...


Swimming with sharks and slithering with snakes
(Hive Addict)
06-23-03 10:28
No 441892
      After further pondering     

Considering that pseudo HCL is insoluable in Naptha and practically insoluable in cold IPA. (Also there no longer beeing any water present) Swim was thinking that after the 3 pulls with the 50/50 juice and allowing it to come to room temperature, the needles will settle to the bottom and there will bee plenty of extraction fluid on top (not leaving much room for the addition of xylene)

Especially the 1000ml called for in the write-up for 20 boxes.

He figures he will syphon (turkey baste) the alky/naptha/gakk off the top and disgard. At least as much as possible and then proceed with the addition of xylene and the 105°C boil.

Does this sound efficient as a space saver?

Or do any of the elders forsee any significant loss by doing so?

Theoretically speaking... wink

Swimming with sharks and slithering with snakes
(Hive Bee)
06-23-03 16:40
No 441942
      Actually isnt it necessary to leave the solution e     

I think the whole point of this technique is to leave everything in the solution cause the alcohol will boil off which leaves nowhere for the pseudo to go so it crashes out.  Then by reaching the temp of 105c, any water that might have gotten in there will be boiled off while at the same time the naptha and xylene are holding any gaaks which go through the filter when hot leaving only the pseudo to be caught.  The gaaks will appear soon after in the dirty xylene/naptha mix while the pseudo sits in the filter all by its self.  At least thats the way i understand it.  If you remove any of the solution before boiling then i would think you would be removing some pseudo as well.

It wasn't Me!
(Of Counsel)
06-23-03 17:23
No 441948
      how about some notes     

Geez has been on a more or less self-imposed lab vacation recently and aside from a couple of bumps a week ago has been clean and sober for not quite a month now. This is not to be construed as having anything to do with a moral imperative, but has a great deal to do with with storms, clumsiness, and the errant path of the phos fairy here of late.

what I haven't seen yet is a description of the interface between the polar and non polar layers during the extraction of the freebase meth. That description usually tells a lot about how clean the pseudo reacted really was.
Anyone who has reacted pseudo HCl pulled by this method care to describe the interface they encounter while extracting the freebase meth into non-polar solvent?

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
06-23-03 19:45
No 441968
      It can bee better     

Hey Scottydog

While what your observing may already be cleaner than what you are used to seeing, you are still only half way there. It can bee better! The 50/50 solution may have started to drop psuedo because of skipping the third pull making your combined pulls supersaturated or you did not combine the pulls at all.  The volume's called for in the method are very specific and there for a reason. The intstructions are painfully anal. By crashing out here and skipping the xylene step you will shortchange yourself on yeild and not defeat some of the more modern super gaks. If the volume of liquid is larger than capacity break it down into two or more passes.


IMHO getting a high yield from one box is about as difficult as it gets due to mechanical losses and poor lab techique. So here is a test you can do to give yourself a benchmark and proof this method for yourself.


Then use this to compare to when you want to experiment so you can see how variations effect the final outcome.


Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
(Hive Bee)
06-23-03 20:26
No 441981
      just woke up     

SWIVE just woke up from a recent dream and wanted to share.

3 boxes National Brand 48 x 60mg

potentialy 2.880gr per box or 8.640gr total.
SWIVE's dream yeild was 8.100gr total.
a yield of 93.75%

-- end gloating --


Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
(Of Counsel)
06-23-03 20:27
No 441983
      Or take the 9.76 gram challenge     

The four box size is very manageable in a single, not-so large container, even after the addition of the xylene. Scottydog's favorite carafe will be more than adequate for the entire volume with room to spare. Geez did the method by the book and from Scottydog's favorite white 60's-- the ones he hits the wall acting about-- and got 9.6 grams of pseudo HCl without being terribly anal about the process. No 98.3% yield should be scoffed at. You do not 'accidentally' extract 98.3% of the pseudo HCl from those pills.

At first I questioned the volume of solvents used, and PM'ed VideoEditor with a bunch of questions which he refused to answer. I had agreed to do the method exactly as written. Having done it once exactly as written, I had no more silly questions and the method made good sense to me.

I still am curious whether our old enemy povidone will come over with the pseudo HCl, and wait to find out whether the orange I or orange II gakks will follow the pseudo. The Orange I should not; if anything it should precipitate in the solvent mix as it cools after the pseudo HCl has been filtered out and rinsed. The orange II is new to me, as I have been on a break from the lab except for the test of this method.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
06-23-03 20:33
No 441986
      what about the 240's w/ the E all in the ...     

what about the 240's w/ the E all in the plastic pill exoskelaton with just a little hole in the end for the time relase. I just snapped them in 1/2 but that plastic seemed to complicate. Though, It might have been other binders.
(Of Counsel)
06-23-03 20:54
No 441993
      your results?     

Castortrip: What results did you have with the 240's?

Glacial Refluxer: If you be shopping for acetone at the big retail store, shop elsewhere. It has been my experience that the brand the boys from Bentonville market will vary in the amount of water it contains, from negligible to downright criminally wet. I will use that brand only when nothing else is available as I have had cans of it I swear were ten percent water. Any time you lose a noticeable amount of pseudo or meth to acetone, the most likely culprit is water in the acetone. I dry all my acetone before I use it as a matter of course. I assume all of it has an unacceptable amount of water in it.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
06-24-03 00:52
No 442045

Theoretically dreaming...

After pulling 3x and "allowing to cool completely" Swim went ahead and syphoned a majority of the excess gakk saturated 50/50 juice from the pooled extractions, added the xylene and crashed out at 105C. Filtered the pseudo, washed with MEK and is waiting to get a tally.

Swim will not tally until a dual IPA/tone recrystalization is completed.

Swim figured since polysorbate 80 was present, skipping the Xylene step may not bee the wisest decision.

With the pills Geez is referring to, the Xylene step may not bee necessary because the supergakks have yet to infest that particular brand.  wink

As for PEG, a recrystalization afterwards with fresh ISO IPA should take care of that problem as most of us here learned way back when tyvek experiments were popular.

Shorty.. Swim agrees with everything you had to say with the exception of losing pseudo.

Swim uses IPA exclusively for recrystalization (red bottle) not dried and rarely suffers any "significant" losses.

Considering that the excess IPA and Naptha are already saturated with gakk, he feels that ditching it won't hurt yields because when the mix is cold, the pseudo is no longer soluable.

The problem with doing this is gakk, making a recrystalization mandatory.

Another observation is during the filtering step of the 50/50 juice. If using charmin, the solvents tend to cool before the liquid can pass. What swim thought to bee pill sediment was actually pseudo. shocked

While waiting for pseudo to dry, Swim started a 2nd 10 box extraction with the 120's and finds that a piece torn from a "blue shop towel" tends to bee a little easier for this extraction technique (allowing more fluid to pass and quicker)

He was spooning it back into the flask and wasting time. Swim now finds it easier to just add it to the pseudo that is filtered off in the end stage and remove whatever gakk that contaminates it through further recrystalization. smile

Swim forsees that shortcuts are possible depending on pill formulations.

Great thread, great info.

Swim appreciates all the help and constructive criticism...

Swimming with sharks and slithering with snakes
(Hive Bee)
06-24-03 04:44
No 442076
      laughing out loud     

Scotty you are just determined to do it your own way. . .

Gotta luv ya man


Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
(Hive Addict)
06-24-03 09:34
No 442124
      Yield report     

Yield Report...

Results are back from Swim's imaginary and theoretical dream!

From the 20 boxes of "12 hour" perrigogo 120mg 20 ct. (48gs possible)

Swim yielded 35.7 gs

Roughly 77%

Pretty good considering that he NEVER uses these pills and could only get them to work once with substandard 50-60% yields using the tyvek method.

Swim is loyal to the foil and the pseudo burns cleanly with zero residue.

Now to see how it runs in an MBRP/I2 dream.

Swim can now go back to his favorite 60 mg pills, less inactives in the carafe, easier to work with and as Geez has attested (Higher Yields)

Sure is nice to know that he can now use the tombstones if he has to.

Kudos to VE and all the bees, test monkeys and guinea pigs who helped to fine tune the technique before unleashing to the masses.

Swimming with sharks and slithering with snakes
(Hive Bee)
06-24-03 17:25
No 442192

Swip did  5 X 48 boxes exactly per write rxn fluid ended up piss yellow??interface was very lumpy and about 1 ml thick.
  upon evap mostly pfed was recovered.some minor patchs of diamonds.
   swip is gonna rerun the pfed and see what comes of it.He is suspecting povidone came thru.NP washes of the post rxn fluid all came back piss yellow except the VMP wash which was clear.4 washes of xylene and they were still coming off yellow.rxn had seemingly went well.anybody have any other thoughts??PC

Theres a reason for all of this but I dont know what it is?
Greg Graffin
(Hive Bee)
06-24-03 17:51
No 442195
      call the feds!     

greg graffin is doin bad things!shocked j/k but that's not too smart unless of course it's not your real name, it's not? oh ok then it's all good then cool
(Hive Bee)
06-24-03 18:27
No 442200
      here's my thought, A/B your STE pseudo next...     

here's my thought, A/B your STE pseudo next time before reacting it.
(Hive Addict)
06-24-03 18:53
No 442204
      Tetra Rinse???     

Platcat: We bees now know that tetra removes POV and friends. It doesn't remove Poo-Tang which is another "Fuckabee in The End" denaturant.
VE: Has SWIVE tried a tetra rinse after the STE?
It couldn't hurt and the time required would only bee the tetra drying time before running the feedstock.
If any invisible poly-inactives are present tetra might be the kicker.
Peace of the REaction

Empty the prisons: make room for Congress!
(Hive Bee)
06-25-03 03:40
No 442300
      Swip did 5 X 48 boxes exactly per write ...     

Swip did  5 X 48 boxes exactly per write rxn fluid ended up piss yellow??interface was very lumpy and about 1 ml thick. upon evap mostly pfed was recovered.some minor patchs of diamonds. swip is gonna rerun the pfed and see what comes of it.He is suspecting povidone came thru.NP washes of the post rxn fluid all came back piss yellow except the VMP wash which was clear.4 washes of xylene and they were still coming off yellow.rxn had seemingly went well.anybody have any other thoughts??PC

Sounds more like an incomplete reaction. Did you burn test the psuedo before reacting. I have not seen POV or PEG totally botch an entire reaction just reduce yeilds.  So far SWIVE has not seen POV or PEG or Snot come through a STE. Would like to hear how the second pass turns out.

Yes Wereami a tetra rinse is fine if you think somethings getting through. SWIVE does an A/B to freebase and the result is pristine.

Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
(Hive Bee)
06-25-03 11:41
No 442386
      reaction fairy just said no     

from the visuals swip felt it had completed.Hit phases at the right temps,slight swirls of whitish smoke,minor PI3 formation,rained HI,only thing was a slight porosity of the balloon on the condensor.very slight.rxn ended at the 8 hour mark and only budged a short time with a temp increase and a squirt of h2o.swip recovered 4/5 of the starting mbrp so a incomplete rxn seems to be indicated.
 swip had a can of tetra sitting there but wanted to do it first by the write up.pfed yeild was resonable at 80% with some xtails visable in PM still.MEK showed a pink drip so swip ensured a thorough rxn was worked up as usual,NP washes were piss yellow.No excess iodine was noticed unreacted.on evap no PEG was noticed at all.resulting pfed was recrystalized in iso.some clouds of mcc were liberated,very dought some snuck thru the charmin.iso came back clear with no show of the pink which has been haunting swip.Swip has some fresh mbrp and will procede to repeat it.And no swip is not Greg Graffin of BAD RELIGION, although it would be nice.....PC

Theres a reason for all of this but I dont know what it is?
Greg Graffin
(Hive Addict)
06-25-03 13:19
No 442414
      A/B=C Square     

VE: Ibee's always been a little squeemish about running freebase pfed mainly due to his inability to obtain 100% of the available feedstock from the NP.
Nonetheless, your final step at reaching pristeen clean feed explains why it's so.
Ibee's experience with the known gaaks hinted at the fact that some of the more microscopic polymers may be present and that was why Ibee suggested the tetra rinse of the pfed hcl just prior to running. As a safeguard....more or less.
Getting beyond the Poo-Tang is a giant leap for BeeKind but they've managed to squeeze several curveballz in one little blisterpack as of late. If just one of "fuckabee in the end" measures follows through into rxn, it reeks havoc on the $$$, Time, and energy invested.
Stopping those crafty pricks dead in thare tracks spells temporary victory until they engineer a new relief pitcher!
Staying one step ahead while SWIMming is damn near impossible unless yer Jchrist. Keeping one's head above water is the best we can expect.
Your research and development is helping bees do just that!
Keep UP the good work!
PC: Your description of the candidates present at the post-bubblebath poolparty indicates to the Kidz that maybe a red innerTUBE found taped to side of the Red/Black can might come in handy as a life saver next time before jumping into the Pool!
Peace of the REaction

Empty the prisons: make room for Congress!
06-25-03 20:34
No 442498

SwiRhi is one of those being away from lab for a while, and just got back online..While traveling a bit past home, being meth country, popped into store to find the "sacred" cold meds, the one containing only the 2 inactives, 60mg suzE and 4mg antihist..only 48 of these, then stumbled onto 48 same actives but 5 inactives,including POV, no MCC or hydro methylcel.....
plan seems to lean toward doing New STE on 48 with POV, then BRAKE-ware those..."sacred" 48-- new STE and should be good to go...React together..Yes small batch but would like to be GOOD...Love to venture to FB suzE but will stick to HCI this run...RP/I2 and clean the crap outa MBRP...
Any thoughts as to separating pill batches???
(Hive Addict)
06-25-03 22:29
No 442515
      If 48 and 48...     

Ibee finds it's always better to bee safe than Gaaked UP!
If one batch of 48 contains poo-tang and the other doesn't, why risk contaminating the whole lot.
But since SWII_R is doing the STE, poo-tang should fall by the wayside and wouldn't bee a concern.
Your call on mixing or running both 48ct batches separate.
Peace of the REaction

Empty the prisons: make room for Congress!
(Hive Bee)
06-25-03 23:22
No 442523
      SWICS reacted didnt notica any polyethelyne...     

SWICS reacted didnt notica any polyethelyne glycol in the postr rxn, but there was a slight ting of pink BEWARE THE GAKK! oh wait, that was excess HCL.  since the rp was grainy and not all lumpy it was safe to assume the pseudo was clean and the reaction fluid was not terrably yellow. but a/b'd STE FB pseudo is just wonderful w/ it's fluffy pearly white crystals gleaming at you, if you ask me, keep it freebase. STE works wonderfully. especially the crystals that didnt pour into the funnel with the rest and are stuck the the bottom of the flask, those are so pertylaugh but you'd be suprised what an a/b removes, yes even from STE pseudo HCL. atleast in my removed about 1 5th a cm of solids under the extracted NP layer. just something to think about wink
(Hive Bee)
06-26-03 14:59
No 442673
      further cleaning required???     

I'm sure that there are lots of bees who have used STE-extracted p-fed in their rxn's.
Anybody have any comments about their post-rxn results using STE'd p-fed? Any POV, PEG, or Poo-Tang I or II, etc?

Castortrip: What final yeilds of p-fed have you gotten after doing the STE followed with an A/B?
Does the A/B seem to remove/lose any p-fed, or does it just get rid of any remaining gakks?
(Of Counsel)
06-26-03 17:17
No 442695
      platcat's povidone     

Saying that Platcat suffered an incomplete reaction begs the question. The question we want to answer is why was the reaction incomplete?

It could have been inadequate red, dirty red, or red that coated during the reaction by a contaminant. We have to trust to Platcat's opinion of how good his red was to start with, and he's not new at this. His symptoms could be explained by povidone, as heavy povidone contamination can coat the red and impair the recycling of I2 to HI causing the reaction to only partially complete. The bright yellow? Can't say its all iodine, as incomplete reactions will have yellow honey, but not necessarily bright piss-yellow honey. I've seen that color many times, but haven't seen it since Placebo told us about the turps cure. The Straight to E does not necessarily address povidone...and I think that is a logical culprit in Platcat's situation.  Platcat may have extracted from some pills with povidone as a foilant rather than as a binder or glue, and his assessment of povidone as a possible source of his incomplete reaction is a good one.

Or his red might be dirtier or more used up than he thought, since he was reacting mbrp-- which will vary in quality.

I am looking forward to Scottydog's results with the stuff he reacted. I think Wareami's observation about a tetra wash is an excellent one. With the variety of foilants in the mix, its really hard to expect to be able to beat evry formulation with a single process. Knowing which ingredients dictate which approach will probably continue to be a vital tool in the extractomaniac's bag of tricks.

I look forward to more yield and purity reports...surely more of you have some results to share with us by now. I guess I'll go hunt down that damn phos fairy and unlock the lab again and find out for myself....I've already concluded the being clean and sober stuff isn't what its cracked up to be...laugh

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
06-26-03 19:40
No 442717
      our favorites are now pink.     

swip had tried the easy pulls on the favorite ones with the minimum inactives.very current by the exp dates I may add.and the damn pink shown thru right away.all the boxes with a 2 prefix and late 2004 and above exp date seem to be involved.(Here anyway)so beeware,aint so easy no more/if you can stock up,do so and look at the dates and lot prefixes.the ones with a 1 prefix pulled ok.this may not bee complete info,swip just found out himself.of course it is not listed.  PC

Theres a reason for all of this but I dont know what it is?
Greg Graffin
(Hive Bee)
06-26-03 19:53
No 442719
      sodium thiosulfate     

swip left out fact that he had used thiosulfate on the post rxn fluid.a small xtail like 3mm.he is ready to do a nano with the reclaimed pfed and some new mbrp so stay tuned!!!.PC

Theres a reason for all of this but I dont know what it is?
Greg Graffin
(Hive Addict)
06-26-03 22:01
No 442741
      One Two Punch!     

What PC describes is what has been witnessed by the Kidz!
There is the Poo-Tang and a Pink, or more precisely, a Peach color inactive included. Ibee named it PeachFuzz cause the fucking pigs probably forced it's introduction without including it in the inactive list of ingredients.
Exposing poo-tang seems to be easy enough using IDEAJuice and has distinctly different property characteristics than the other peachfuzz.
Jubilation was felt when the Poo-Tang was exposed and removed from the picture during the IDEA wash, but gloom and doom soon followed when  peachfuzz was found to be present in the alky extracted pfed solution after the IDEA wash.
More will bee revealed...
Which may bee good or bad depending on which side you are on.wink
Peace of the REaction

Empty the prisons: make room for Congress!
(Hive Bee)
06-26-03 23:19
No 442750
      pink pfed dirty pfed     

Firstly...VE...nice achieve even similar results swim required a long complex messy ritual.  Once again you have brought order to the chaotic world of pill extracting. swims the pfed to perfection is likely possible...but impractical.  swim has routinely dreamed of running way dirtier pfed than this extraction provides. simply sick of screwing with pill extractions, just dry a/b and nothing else.  boiling the reaction long and wet, and distilling. yields 45-50%. maybe not any 75-80%, but alot less pulling out of hair over pill troubles or fighting gakky a/b's.
  Pill grinding is a dying art, the end will eventually arrive for most. so swim isn't going to sweat over it anymore, he never had much luck anyways.

VE, thanks for the nice post, you're the undefeated extracting champ.

Iä-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iä Iä!
(Hive Bee)
06-27-03 07:02
No 442805

what ever it is swip had some sucess a while back using pfed recovered from a similar failed rxn.washed in MEK,tone,and recrystalized in iso and crashed in produced some nice honey,so swip is not sure if the failed  rxn had cleaned it or if his steps on the recovered precursor cleaned it.there was no pink showing in any of those mother liquers, just minor clouds of MCC.swip recovered 70% from that one.hope this helps and does not add to the confusion.PC

Theres a reason for all of this but I dont know what it is?
Greg Graffin
(Of Counsel)
06-27-03 17:14
No 442928
      accepting lower yields     

I can agree with Cthulhujr, at least at the scale SWIG tends to work at. SWIG has always been happy to take lower percentage yields of purer pseudo and react those, than take chances with higher yields from the pills which contain gakks which cut into his final yields or worse yet, contaminate the product.

At a larger scale it is difficult to resist higher yields from the pillstock, but at a once ounce scale and a cost per gram OTC of pseudo of around $2.50 a gram, being tight on the extraction end can easily cost you more money if it costs you final yield. How much is the time it takes to clean it worth?

That is one of the great advantages of the waterless a/b method when you become accustomed to it. The yield may not be stellar, but the precursor is clean.

SWIG understands you completely, Cthulhujr....and agrees with you-- at least at his usual scale of operation.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
06-27-03 20:14
No 442954
      Everyone is right. SWIC got good yields, but...     

SWIC got ~70% after A/B but like it's being said u know.. even if the yields were 50% it's still defanitly worth it for the cleaner product unless it's a large scale reduction
(Hive Bee)
06-27-03 20:20
No 442957

also u know SWICS teqnieues arent the greatest. And heating that solution to 105c. is risky if your just going to do an A/B afterwords. 85c. then cool works good. then u knwo you wont get all the gak but the A/B snatches it up, it did on wally world 60s for SWIC, with decent yields, but great product, well for SWIM it was like this, heating to 105 burnt the pseudo alittle.. heating then cooling, they crash out in the freezer w/e, then  more heat so it filters good, and a mek wash then an a/b still cleaned *alittle* gunk, but VE knows wtf he is doing. no doubt, and his method is brilliant. it's just...SWIC just has to do things his own way sometimes. thru trial&error, that's how we learn shit aint it?wink
(Hive Bee)
06-27-03 22:19
No 442978
      Just curious     

Just curious why you feel 105c is any more dangerous than 85c. Ignition at either temperature is gonna suck really bad. Your assumption that yeild and cleanliness will suffer by not running up to 105c is correct. 105c also makes sure that traces of water have been evaporated.


Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
(Hive Bee)
06-28-03 01:37
No 443010
      chilling in freezer = nono     

At a certain point, one of the unwanted ingredients will
start crashing out with your pretty looking pseudo

The white stuff that looks like chewed up paper pulp is not

Swim had some sucess by bringing to a light boil [temp
unknown] untill the alcohol smell was replaced with the
xylene smell, then removed from heat. Most of the pseudo
crashed out first and was filtered before that other stuff
started forming but their are to many mechanical losses
involved and the yeild was 3.3g out of 4.8g so swim suggest
sticking with the 105`c as stated.
06-28-03 02:54
No 443024

Thanks Ware, others...SwiI_R delayed till am on return to lab and main concern is POV being in one 48 box..not using GUPS, one wouldn't soak so the inclination is still to do Tetra wash on prepared psusE prior to pills found in couple of years so SwiI_R wants a good outcome...plan to cook as long as possible but have to do without condenser....Any other thoughts on POV using exact STE?
(Hive Bee)
06-28-03 03:00
No 443026
      PooTang/Fuzz buster?     

Geez: That is one of the great advantages of the waterless a/b method when you become accustomed to it. The yield may not be stellar, but the precursor is clean.

Are you saying that a waterless A/B performed after the STE gets rid of the PooTang I, II, and Pinkfuzz gakks?
If so, 70% isn't bad at all if the p-fed is totally

If not, will Geez' xylene pseudo precep technique get rid of these gakks? It gets rid of PooTang I, but has anybody tried the XPPT on the other 2 gakks?
(Hive Bee)
06-28-03 15:43
No 443110
      substitutions and variations?     

Where I live, although it can be gotten, toluene is a bit of a hassle (petrol depot) and vm&p naptha has to be gotten from specialists far away from me, and IPA, well, that's expensive compared with ethanol...

so, I was thinking it might be good to see how substituted solvents might work, this is what I am thinking:

50/50 dry ethanol/naptha boil, hot filter 3x
add odourless turps to extract gaks and boil off alcohol
dry acetone wash
recrystallise in ethanol

The idea of combining alcohol and naptha and an aromatic together is brilliant, it cuts out a step and means the crystals are precipitated immediately, and gaks can be spotted as well.

I will report on results after dreaming about it

you can't keep peace with a gun
06-28-03 17:45
No 443127
      In Koledge...     

..our professors always told us to keep a notebook handy to snuff fires in glass containers with. Never had to do it, personally.
(Hive Bee)
06-29-03 13:57
No 443272
      reruns successfull!     

Well for what its worth swip worked up his rerun ,recycled pfed and recovered 60%(M) so far and more to come tomorrow.nicest rxn he has seen in a signs of unreacted I2,no piss yellow post rxn fluid,and definate CNS activity on bio assay.proper amount of RP was missing and swip is a happy camper.
 swip will do the STE over on stock that has had a good dusting and overnight soak in xylene with a TCE quick dip on the dried pfed after the STE.
 Swips previous failure seems to have been an incomplete rxn.only 2/3rds of the nessessary rp was missing so he assumes (1)it was tired, or (2)povidone stopped it, or (3)MissCats refusal to do the obligatory titty dance w/incantations, or (4) all of the above.Alls well that ends well,PC out.

Theres a reason for all of this but I dont know what it is?
Greg Graffin
(Of Counsel)
07-03-03 01:04
No 444086
      "Straight to E" extraction: Yield report     

I can't believe no one is posting reports about the yield of meth from pseudo extracted by this technique.

Remember the 9.6 gm of pseudo HCl SWIG got on his first attempt of the procedure, the one from Scottydog's favorite drug store white sixties? That 98% yield?

Added that and 5 grams of fairy fresh red phos, 11 gm of I2, 10 ml dH20, put in the oil bath with the condenser running  and a balloon on the top....brought it up to temp and got the reflux going well...and left it for 48 hours.

SWIG's first incursion into the lab in five weeks was fraught with discoveries, like how light a one gallon can of xylene is and how empty that full gallon can of acetone is, and how naptha can just disappear into thin air without anyone knowing what the fuck is going on...I don't mind if the alchemist's assistant uses the equipment, but I hate like hell to find out I don't have supplies on hand and wind up at Wallyworld at two in the morning.

Rant over.

Very good smell, and the honey was very very pale whitish, maybe just a suggestion of yellow.  Washed once with xylene then three times with TCE and once with hot naptha. The hot naptha was clean.  I used boiling naptha to extract the goods two times, as that was all the naptha left in that new gallon...(grrrrr....where's that shotgun?) Did the third pull with the last of the xylene.

I started adding 20% NaOH solution and my suspicions were confirmed. Bubbles fizzed outta that fluid like from an only-left-open-since-this-morning soda--which is a good sign in  this situation. The fluid based so quickly with so little NaOH solution it surprised me. I take that as a good sign.

(I forgot to mention that I had no emulsion, had a mirror-like interface, and had more bubbles fizz up when I added  salt to the fluid.)  For the fun of it (okay, odd sense of humor here) and to see whether there was any emulsion potential about, I shook the sep funnel with the fluid and xylene the same way I would shake the xylene and aquous HCl later-- I used the the same stomp dance and the regular chant. SWIG does not recommend this to anyone, mind you. This is asking for emulsion hell and tempting the meth gods. He put the funnel in the ring stand and that mirror interface was right there, ready to shave by. No emulsion at all. The reaction fluid fell right to the bottom.

Okay,Okay...SWIG will cut to the chase.

Net yield: 7 grams of meth HCL, very nice sparkly white, not recrystalized due to the late hour and work today. This re-rocks right now, has legs from here to Georgia, leaves almost no residue on glass unless incinerated. Nice! Has no taste.

The last puff SWIG had was two o'clock this morning, or sixteen hours ago. You might guess at the quality. laugh

I figure that 7.8 or 7.9 grams of meth HCl from 9.6 grams of pseudo HCl would be a 100% reduction, so seven grams is a good number. I might expect that from a freebase reaction, maybe, but I didn't expect it from a HCl reaction. (To nettle the chemists, thats about a 72% yield by weight of the precursor or about eighty eight percent of the pseudo if its all meth-- and I haven't found anything else in it yet...laugh (Okay, okay...about a 67% molar yield. Sorry.)

OF COURSE the next question will be whether the yield is the product of the longer reflux, or the extraction technique.

Hey Scottydog! Grab them while you can!

That seven grams of final product is from four boxes of white sixties...twenty five bucks worth of OTC pills.

You hear that Payin2Much?

Well, gotta go now. Think I may take up cross country for the fun of it...even if it is July laugh

VideoEditor: I believe!

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
07-03-03 02:19
No 444097
      just to add...     

Thanks Geez and to all that have contributed to this thread.  I would like to add one more observation after getting feedback from many bees.  So far 99% of all STE failures have been due to water. If your having snot or gak appear your still wet.  Dont be afraid to up the quantity on the drying agents and/or let it sit longer if your having problems.  Also remember the psuedo will crash out around 85C but keep boiling to 105C, its an important cleaning step. Please Please Please use your head when boiling flammable liquids. Always bee prepared and if your scaling up do several batches. Ignition of 1000ml of flammable solvent will engulf a small room faster than you can reach for the extinguisher.

peace and bee safe -VE

Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
07-03-03 03:11
No 444103

Marvin said if I didn't commend VE
on his clarity of communication,
above and beyond the technical procedural breakthrough
that the technique represents,
that he was going to

A: cut me off

B: get his own "screen name" and post his own rambles.

Both scenarios are unacceptable:
thus I raise my profile
to give kudos to Video Editor,
who well deserves them!



PS: showing that even "wet dreams" can be screwed up,
 a friend of mine was so entranced
with the bubbles rising from the evaporating alcohol
in the hot naphtha,
lit from below by the red hot heater filament,
that he went to get his camera
and turned off the light to take a picture.

Deciding to get more "swirl" in the bubbles
from the stir bar, he cranked up the RPM,
and the nearly superheated alcohol in solution
suddenly came ALL out at once,
generating a vertical spout of pre-molasses-laden NP,
which cost nearly 50% on the yield side..  <duh>  ":<(

Moral: Don't mix chemistry with photography.
sub-moral:  when the alcohol is gone,
the temperature climb rate is amazingly fast,
so watch it!

sub-sub observation.  any WATER in the mix
goes away at 100C, so if it starts poppin',
you HAD some.  ":<)

PPS: Hope geeze isn't alone
when he crosses the dry, hot desert.
The horny toads might get 'em..laugh

(Hive Addict)
07-03-03 05:18
No 444119
      Thanx VE!     

So far 99% of all STE failures have been due to water

Boy did you hit it on the head!
Ibee been tellin bees this for months!
Much appreciation from the bottom of Ibee's heart!
Keep it UP Bro!

Peace of the reaction


Empty the prisons: make room for Congress!
(Hive Bee)
07-04-03 02:58
No 444340
      Sulfate Crystallising Temperature     

Evening Bees,

My how it pays to drop in every now and then.  LAst time here I marvelled at crystallising pfed HCl out into xylene.  Now faced with this seemingly universally approved method,  I have a couple of questions that folk may/ may not have experience/advice in answering.

Firstly -
The 85C crystallising out temperature for pfed HCl in xylene
-Trial and error will give me the answer but for sake of a heads up - can I expect the temp for pfed sulf to be lower or higher? ?

Secondly - SWIG was planning to do some tone boils after this procedure to kill chlorphen. 
Since not already mentioned,  is this necessary?  or does the MEK rinse have some magical properties to kill antihistamine?

Otherwise, VE`s STE brings the stealth SWIG needs. 
The Stress combined with a little meth psychosis makes the usual long soak/decant dry pre-prep unpleasurable.
(and one SWIG does not like to repeat all that often)

This takes at least a day of hot potato off the schedule.
WICKEDness.  And no crushing!!!  Hooray ! ! !

Spirits of earth bring unto me
(Hive Bee)
07-04-03 22:36
No 444549
      Just a late thankyou     

TY VideoEditor and geez for nicely written test results.
(Hive Bee)
07-05-03 06:36
No 444632
      On reflection - sulfates     

OK - scuse my ignorance in the previous post. 
The temperature 85C is when the iso has mostly boiled off - 105 helps rid excess water.  And psuedo sulf is insoluble in np.

Spirits of earth bring unto me
(Hive Bee)
07-05-03 08:41
No 444647

Im not sure but swim believes those locking pill deturrent
patents only apply to pseudoepedrine hcl type pills/syrups.

Waterless a/b without all the solvent boils might bee all
you need for a full return, plus it gives you the freebase
or hcl

The sulfate weighs more than hcl so end result will weigh
07-06-03 01:17
No 444777
      FINALLY to Work     

Well, SwiI_R is finally back at lab for too short a time, after a while away, but is very quickly embarking on an STE and subsequent NANO just for quick testing, hopefully the quality she is used to. Posted pillz bee4, using those with few inactives for this experiment,,,know how to deal with all, pov in 48 out of 96 only troublemaker. (4 mg antihist in both) Short rest then to work, doing each 48 ct. separately..TCE rinse on POV SUzE, so all nighter,only buddy is budlite..?? is?? washing soda need not be dried as far as she knows...used it to "lite" base not for drying agent bee4. Wants to please Swim several hours from now so wishes to know for sure bout said sodium carbonate....use as is, right?
Thanks in advance,

NEVER let them know what you REALLY do for FUN-----!!
07-06-03 02:10
No 444789
      SWIT agrees STE seems to be the only reliable...     

SWIT agrees STE seems to be the only reliable method. 1st try results were inspected visually then lost (SWIT being stupid dropped onto shag carpet accidently) though 2nd 47% yield and sufficient for his recent rxn3. Passes foil test.

SWIT thinks that 91%IPA (even with dry NAP) needs more drying agents NaCl and calc carb though SWIT is guessing VE def was using 99% or dry IPA. Not totally sure how much is sufficient but probly thinking 2-4x each as a little overkill insures DRY and a dualed coffee filter/funnel should pull any suspended solids. He didnt realize it wasnt dry until popper bubbles seen on boiling mostly in the first 2 pulls and sees this as primary reason to the 47% yield of cleaned PFED with 2nd run (both with 1 48x60 box). SWIT also adds TCE wash prior to 2nd with the orange gakked CPM whites and the fine sifted powder seemed preferable since whole pills didnt want to dissolve consistenly fine. The 1st result before losing did appear somehow gakked though the orange tint was out, but maybe it was just bc that H20 problem. SWIT isnt sure as to whether TCE would be better before, after, or both.

(Hive Bee)
07-06-03 04:19
No 444803
      yes dry it     

If your using washing soda as a drying agent yes it should bee oven dried, using the same method as epsom salts. Yes if you can get 99% ISO use it.

Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits
07-06-03 05:07
No 444808
      posting results here     

same as before, great yield. Some pseudo goes thru the filter into the trashy under-filter-beaker, & he wants it but it's in there w/ that crap. Would cooling to room temp, release any gaks into my pseudo from the xylene?

ok SWIC did some research. His pseudo went thru because his filter was not fine enough. (SWIM used generic coffe filter 2x.) The xylene/naptha sol. must be hot for gakks/waxes to filter. quality filter paper disks help alot. (unless SWIY wants to wait an hour) filter flask/vacuum is recommended. But just his experience shows a fritted disk would immensely improve his yield. just for any bee on the STE trains info cool

it's not how well you can sell a bad product, it's how easy a good product sells wink
07-06-03 05:10
No 444810
      THANK YOU --VE!!!!     

She thought so...thanks so!!!! Can one use the red bottle 99% ISO for the process?? It seems to boil so fast not real sure about that...Getting ready to go to dream land, so since the only thing prepared is dried epsoms and 91%, rhi will just add a tad more epsoms, if red ISO not acceptable for this purpose..She really wants to report on sweet dreams in a few hours.......
THANKS one and all...many successful dreams have been had but lately, lost so much pseudo cleaning the shit out of it am excited as, well excited, about STE..

NEVER let them know what you REALLY do for FUN---------
07-06-03 05:56
No 444814
      yield report and the devil's playthings...     

okay geezmeister, another yield report from the field after a setback (which presented itself in the form of water when she forgot to dry the acetone that she used to de-red her redhots).

she decided that she had had enough of the red-hot saga for awhile (even though they were not to blame) so she went with 2 boxes of 48ct. national brand white 60's and 2 boxes of 48ct. generic white 60's which included a bit more gaak than the name brand.

in her opinion, the beauty of VE's method is the pure simplicity of it, so she finds it perplexing (short of not having access to a required ingredient) that anyone would feel the need to deviate. thus, she has no deviation to report (but for that not pertaining to this subject matter) except for this:

she knew that the next month or so would find her short on time and with limited access to her work area. so she proceeded to make a large batch of the extraction solution (91% alc/ VP&M Naptha/ salt/ epsom phase) and stored it in an airtight container for later use. one of those "later"'s came and its storage proved handy indeed.

yield from the aforementioned 48ct 4 box extraction: 8.9gms of beautiful product. after several runs, she continues to be surprised (and delighted) by the quality and the yields because the simplicity of this method was so unexpected (despite the many sudden "i've always known this"'s).

so now she has all this time on her hands! what's this hogwash about "idle hands are the devil's playthings" anyway?

um, so VE, geez...can you come over and give my hands something to do?

There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion- Francis Bacon
07-06-03 06:42
No 444821
      Hey autumn---     

Question..since time and suddenly availability is a factor at this Ranch, did you combine the brands, with that success, with said STE?? Getting ready to go to work, and that would shorten time for sure..first STE and combining with other methods have gotten very dodgy to say the least...

NEVER let um know what you REALLY do for FUN-------
07-06-03 07:01
No 444826
      did you combine the brands, with that success,     

did you combine the brands, with that success, with said STE??...first STE and combining with other methods have gotten very dodgy to say the least...

oh sweetie, yes, she combined brands, but not methods. she says that if you'll try this method (VE's straight to e), 'dodgy' won't be one of the adjectives you'll use to describe it. wink

There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion- Francis Bacon
07-06-03 07:38
No 444832
      THANKS - lamb     

OH NO luv, will not at all combine methods..will use 2 brands white 60's together with our hero's STE and have results ASAP, saves bout 3 hours I imagine..was gonna do 2 separate STE's but with only a couple extra inactives in one brand, will save lots of time..
me, computer, and bud(lite) will be at work all nite, no lab rat partner currently so THANKS A BUNCH!!!

NEVER let um know what you REALLY do for FUN-!!!!
07-06-03 19:38
No 444915

okay, i understand what you meant now that i read your question in the light of day. i was very tired last night when i read your post. sorry.

There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion- Francis Bacon
07-07-03 07:41
No 445125
      thanks VE, ...and realizes it had another problem     

It was commercial pool grade 98% sodium(oops) carbonate without indicating what the inactives were but just that the remainder 2% was inert. SWIT also remembered that its particles seemed really big, larger than any RD-lye, and even with vigorous stirring/shaking for about 5 mins most mostly spent time on the jar bottum, so he suspects better results with some surface area by grinding the pebbles to more of a powder then the oven dry. Still probably opt for excess amounts maintaining ratio with NaCl unless 99% IPA is available. Cant wait til tomorow funn shoppin, cause a 7+g rxn4 is underway

(Hive Bee)
07-07-03 12:20
No 445179
      red bottle=yes     

go ahead and use it.swips favorite.PC

Theres a reason for all of this but I dont know what it is?
Greg Graffin
(Hive Bee)
07-07-03 14:03
No 445196
      proceeding by the book - even then issues pop up     

Okay, SWIM is going absolutely by the book, except for the glass stir rod (bamboo sticks) and the flask used for the initial boils is a 500ml rb boiling flask.

6x24 count generic 60's (half of SWIM 60's pillstock)

It took forever for the pills to dissolve on the hot plate and the initial 1/3 solution was at a rolling boil. At least 10-15 minutes, probably more like 30 and still some pills had not fully dissolved.

SWIM finally pulled the solution and filtered. Looks like he started with 130ml or so and ended up with...50-75 if that...

The next two 1/3 solution boils go more according to what appears to be spec...not much loss in volume, but some pills still have not fully dissolved.

And upon filtering the last 1/3rd SWIM found needles at the bottom of the glass used to contain the 3 pulls. The solutions was then filtered again into another container and then everything is being left alone; covered with saran wrap but left alone till some kind bee can clue SWIM in as to wtf is going on. The needles that were filtered out look like sugar, sparkling and in density in the filter but clearly looked like fred in the solution.

Trying to do this thing just as written but this doesn't seem to have been covered. ??

Off to sleep and dream of honey...someday

goodman, badman, lost without...a hope for passage on the last plane out
(Hive Bee)
07-07-03 14:05
No 445197
      anhydrous isopropyl     

The big drug stores have it, you know the EMPORIUM sized stores. 99% can also be had at electronics supply, and easiest of all, internet drugstore pages.
The method STE is hereby nominated as technique of the year, catagory: extractions
For simplicity, and yeild, it is the best by far and away for pulling psudo. Fast and easy, thanx VE

(Also works with zyrtec 5s heheheheheheh)

Karma? Karma is on Murphy's payroll. Nothing improper, it's freelance.
07-07-03 15:06
No 445201
      THANKS PC     

rhi thought so..but was pondering, while waiting on oven fresh epsoms....
SwiM--on pills...what were inactives and what % ISO--91%,99%, as in drugstore not auto type(red-bottle)? Those needles you are describing,,,this info may help..Sound familiar but most may need that info just in case....

NEVER let um know what you REALLYdo for FUNNNNNNNNNN-------
(Hive Addict)
07-07-03 16:06
No 445220
      Yes micky     

Yes micky!

There "May bee" pfed in both the filter and what passed through the filter. shocked

Want to know for sure?

Separate the contents...

Take the contents left in the filter and redissolve in meoh, shake and let settle. Also allow the contents that originally passed through the filter to come to room temp and refilter that solution. Take the now 2nd filter of pseudo + gakk and redissolve this portion in meoh, shake and let settle.

What is the common denominator between both piles?

They both MAY contain some gakk. (Esp if SwiY follows write-ups or attempts to modify it like Swim did)

Pfed is soluble in methanol, most of the gakk remaining at this point is not. Edit:(PEG or POV would bee)

Swim ended up having to do this in the end. There was insoluble sediment because Swim chose to pool everything together. *(Which he shouldn't have)*

Swim ran 4 extractions total. On one of them (the last one) he had to peel a plastic layer off the top of pfed. (exoskeleton plasti-gakk) That became a clue that a recrystalization was necessary. For some bees the gakk may not bee as obvious?

He then syphoned the meoh solution, run through funnel with Charmin and re-evapped for pristine needles.

Lost a little weight in the end. But makes for an excellent finishing step to make sure that you know exactly what you got.

Now it has been covered.

But then again remember, Swim didn't follow the extraction verbatim as was instructed.

He used 120's and if he would have pre-cracked the tombstones with acetone and filtered through a fine mesh metal screen (filtering off the plasti-exoskeletons) and dried the powder prior to extraction with dried IPA/naptha, this may not have been necessary.

Hope this helps with the 120's.

Some people discover helpful tips after the fact. crazy

Swimming with sharks and slithering with snakes
07-07-03 17:02
No 445239
      Poor V/E     

Seems like the S2E is becoming more complicated than it should on a daily basis!

is thErE an Ending to it all?????????
(Of Counsel)
07-07-03 19:05
No 445259
      not paying attention--damn     

Why is it I get those offers to be a playground for idle hands when I'm not online here? Damn....missed again!

On a more somber note,  Scottydog's experience with the 120's suggests an alcohol soluble binder in the shells I think. I extracted some of these 120's by straight to E and realized something other than pseudo was in the pseudo. It was nice and white, but too hard, too firm, whatever. I did a xylene clean of the pseudo with about 5% loss in weight but no problem with the reaction (other than an unsatisfactory yield, which might be cured on the third pull if the extra is there) and no contamination of the product. Mirror interface, no emulsion. There seems to be a need for a little polishing up on the pseudo extracted from the 120's.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
07-07-03 20:46
No 445280
      Crackin Skulls     

Okay Geez:
Ibee had some real eye-openers regarding the difference between Large-Scale production and small testing scale nano size extractions.
Only til you're faced with such dilemma's, the problems solutions don't require much thought.
When working with 1000 tombstones, Ibee's method of skull bashing with a mortar and pestle are outta the question.
Mnkyboys Cracked Pearl technique is good if using anhydrous tone, but it takes a humongous strainer and some shit still gets through.
Most bees still chuck shit in the blender on large scale and this lets some shell through as well.
Here is Ibee's suggestion for such cases.
Ya Ready........STRAP IN....I mean it!!!!!
Take two pieces of hardwood plywood and wrap them individually with packing cellophane. Pour out yer tombstones Onto one of the sheets so all lie individually flat. Put the other piece of plywood on top and run a strip of cellophane around the sides! Then completely wrap both sheets together!
Lay the fucker flat in the driveway(preferably concrete or blacktop). Hop in the ride....strap in and drive over the bitch to crack all the tombstones!
Once cracked, the tombstones can be strained with a strainer.
The pillmass will fall through the strainer and the shells will be left in the strainer!
Just a thought....I think!wink
Ya really want to eliminate those shells prior to a liquid phase extraction.
Peace of the reaction


Stay off that needle!
You might break the 8trackplayer
(Hive Bee)
07-08-03 10:06
No 445520
      Pre Xylene phase psuedo crash - good fred     

Thanks for the insight as to most of SWIM's issue...the first needles that caught in the filter weighed 4G dry and when place on foil burned slowly with much white smoke and left zero residue. SWIM has been finding previous fred to turn orange on foil when heated. There was a familiar scent to the smoke...but SWIM doesn't know exactly why or what. Working on pulling the settled needles.

SWIM still has outstanding questions in regard to the length of boil and pillstock. SWIM is going to save the pillstock in case he may have to mix another batch of elixer since the pills didn't all fully dissolve even after 1 seriously long rolling boil and the 2 standard 1-2 minute boils for which s2e called.

It seems like the timing of the first boil was off spec and if someone can tell SWIM that a 500ml rb boiling flask instead of an elemyer made a difference then he will suffer his questions in silence, but it doesn't seem that it should matter for that part of the process. SWIM is using a 2000ml (yes 2L) filtration flask for the xylene crash phase...this allows plenty of room for the fred to crash, yes?

Off to filter the settled needles and do the first vm&p pull of SWIM's nano that's been sitting for 8's that for patience?

EDIT 8 hours later

The second needles that had filtered *through* were very similar to the needles that were caught in the charmin plug initially. SWIM is going to add the xylene to the combined fluid and continue as per s2e.

However, SWIM thinks that the nearly 6G in needles that are already out will be dissovled in methanol (when procured from the store...the "HE*T" auto product is satisfactory, yes?) , as per scottydog, to see what appears to be fred.

Then, should SWIM do a xylene precipitation to be sure they are clean needles? Seems as if it would be a good idea...

He's tempted to just throw the damn 6G in a new rxn but will remain patient to be sure he doesn't jump the gun erroneously.

here's a concept you can't dance idea you cannot hum
(Of Counsel)
07-08-03 17:58
No 445611
      pill coatings     

Mickeyfinn: Have you considered the fact that the pills you had may have been coated with a compound that does not dissolve readily? There are several brands like that. For those, you do not benefit by boiling the alcohol off before the coating dissolves and the pills fall apart. Might as well crunch them up and powder them before you add them to the solution, or at least let them soak to dissolve the coatings before you boil them. The pseudo is extracted by the alcohol; if you evaporate too much of it off you do not have anything to extract with, or not enough to extract with. You have to use enough alcohol to extract the pseudo--and that much has to be in the solution after filtering or you did not get it all.

Boiling the solution is more critical to gakk avoidance than it is to extraction. The boiling is only an indication that you have the solution hot enough for the naptha to do its job. There is no benefit to be obtained by boiling the pill solution and evaporating the alcohol while the pills are intact. Most crumble readily in the hot solution, but if they do not, break them up before you put them in the solution.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
07-08-03 23:13
No 445666
      by the book one time I recall...     

Okay Geez...SWIM was trying to do this as Geez directed "just one time" by the book since he had used the microwave before so he just opened the packs and dropped in the pills. It didn't say to GUP them so SWIM didn't. These same 60's dissolved quickly in the microwave S2E two weeks ago...don't know if these are a different lot.

Just checked the manufacturer...they are perrigogos, white 60's not 120's but they are perrigogos. Will go over scottydog's methodology and attempt to follow the best course of action from here. Will also check to see if he went with GUP initially.

SWIM has 8 x 24 perrigogo 60's to run next and he will go GUP...then 60 count national brand 120's with blue writing are batting clean up GUP.

there may not be an empty seat...when all is said and done
07-08-03 23:20
No 445670
      SWIC came across some 99.9% dry ...     

SWIC came across some 99.9% dry isopropanol and n-hexane, ths mixtures percentile is racemic. This quickly caught SWICs eye. n-hexane is a nice np. And 99% isopropanol is very valuable in the method of STE also. SWIC is very curious as to how nice they would play mixed together. Another curious question is, how would they fair with the introduction of ketones?  SWIC appreciates any info about this. It was defanitly something he wanted to look into.
(Hive Bee)
07-09-03 03:53
No 445737
      Plastic coated 60's     

Mickeyfinn: Have you considered the fact that the pills you had may have been coated with a compound that does not dissolve readily?

Fackin Aye. The 60's Swic uses have a plastic shell on em' that swell up like a fackin balloon when they are boiled, but absolutely refuse to break open, and allow the pfed to come out. Swic has ta crack em' open before hand to get at the goods, but when he does, the STE works just fine. He had the same problem with the Tyvek pulls he was doing till he figured that out. Speaking of tyvek, somma ya that have been havin' problems with gaak comin through should wrap yer goods in tyvek and tie a good knot in it to keep the PM in, and I guarantee that the gaak won't come through the tyvek, no matter how long, or how hard ya boil it in the alky/naptha. Just try it. It works, and does away with the need to filter the alky for the most part.


Just fuckin'do it already
(Hive Bee)
07-09-03 13:07
No 445824
      missed reply     

SwiM--on pills...what were inactives and what % ISO--91%,99%, as in drugstore not auto type(red-bottle)? Those needles you are describing,,,this info may help..Sound familiar but most may need that info just in case....

Sorry ichi, missed this earlier...

actives are fred=60mg and Chlorpheniramine maleate=4mg
the inactives *listed* are minimal:
magnesium stearate and microcrystalline cellulose

IPA used was 99% (this particular bottle was L*ngs Dr*gs -{bustarhymes with wrongs bugs} blue bottle - SWIM won't use anything less than 99% (he obtained a quantity of various 99% IPA when he realized how badly he wants to be completely anhydrous) SWIM also doesn't depend on the truth in advertising so he takes the bottles and dumps them in silica gel to be sure they are h20 free as possible.

so we kept the good ol' vices...and we labored to invent a few
(Hive Bee)
07-09-03 13:25
No 445826
      no coating like that on these 60's     

Fackin Aye. The 60's Swic uses have a plastic shell on em' that swell up like a fackin balloon when they are boiled, but absolutely refuse to break open, and allow the pfed to come out. Swic has ta crack em' open before hand to get at the goods, but when he does, the STE works just fine. He had the same problem with the Tyvek pulls he was doing till he figured that out. Speaking of tyvek, somma ya that have been havin' problems with gaak comin through should wrap yer goods in tyvek and tie a good knot in it to keep the PM in, and I guarantee that the gaak won't come through the tyvek, no matter how long, or how hard ya boil it in the alky/naptha. Just try it. It works, and does away with the need to filter the alky for the most part.

Well, these 60's didn't do that...they just didn't dissolve real swelling.

However, SWIM will take up the tyvek gauntlet again, (SWIM actually posted this question about tyvek wrap way back in the first threads but nobody answered) since it will save a mess and now knows it will keep the gaak back. SWIM entered the game a month after the tyvek trials...and swim loves tyvek...HOORAY!

GUP in tyvek will be the only modification to s2e with this next batch of 60's...should be able to run it tomorrow sometime...would do it tonight if flippin nano would've given up it's to check the evap...

Well, strike that...if the nano would flippin evap...looks like SWIM will have some honey in the morning...light crusty rim tasted salty and made SWIM's mouth water. smile

Damn, that's "a spicy meat a' ball"

with cake in vulgar surplus, we can have it and eat it too
(Of Counsel)
07-09-03 18:22
No 445893

SWIG was the grateful receipient of 214 Zyrtec-D tabs yesterday evening. These were extracted by this method. Yield of pseudo HCL was 82% (21 grams of 25.5 possible). This pseudo seemed exceptionally clean. The yield could likely have been increased with more care on SWIG's part, who suffered some loss in yield to a little spillage of the alky/naptha/pseudo mix, some pseudo lost in the filtering process. These pill extract nicely by this method, it appears. SWIG did not do additional cleaning or polishing of the pills. Bioassays scheduled for Thursday-something.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
07-10-03 00:46
No 445964

Holy Schniekeys that was some expensive ass pseudo! Maybe it'll like double itself in the rxn flask or something to give ya twice the meth.

Just fuckin'do it already
07-10-03 11:24
No 446123
      NO prob     

No problem mickeyfinn...I have those same pills, generic, same exact "stated" inactives....Don't have 99% from drugstore so platcat says ISO 'red' is ok...My comment re: needles was just make sure it is not MCC.....Sounds tho your method will take care of like moi you always burn test on foil!!!!!

NEVER let um know what you REALLY do for FUN------------
07-12-03 01:43
No 446487
      Red-Hot 30s + STE = ?     

This is my first post, but I haven't had any fun dreams yet, so no flamage!

I read about this guy's dream where he followed the STE process exactly as written. He used 15 (24 ct) boxes of various red-hots. However, he did not de-red them as no mention of that in the write-up.

As some have experienced, the first pull didn't do much to dissolve the pills, so manual crushing was employed as the temp increased to boiling. (Maybee too little solvent mixture?) A splash of ISO was added to keep everything fluid.

More pulls and completion of what is written. Much attention was paid to ensuring the 105C was reached and not exeeded.

In the writer's dream, the end result is very reddish/pink and upon spreading out the filter for drying it does look much like moist, chewed up paper (as someone else dreampt).

I not only USFSE, but I have coded them, so give me a break. I just have a couple questions about this specific method.

1. Would anyone suggest that this method works better with non-red pills or de-reded ones? I've read that some red-in-yur-fred doesn't cause that big of a problem during RXN.

2. VE - Did you leave out any settling or cooling steps? In the guy's dream, he just moved along without significant settling or cooling.

3. Can't seem to locate a recent thread on recrystalization of fred. This seems like a must. Can someone point me in a direction on that?

4. After combining the remaining solvents in a trash jar, noticed an oily looking layer on the bottom. Is this fred?

I'm really looking forward to a dream about a mid-nano RXN and am very pleased to have stumbled upon this. I think I've read nearly every post thus far. Well, skimmed.
07-12-03 09:23
No 446559
      VE - my only regret regarding your STE method...     

... is that I cannot buy you a beer and express my heartfelt appreciation for your breakthrough, in person.


You are the man.
(Of Counsel)
07-13-03 00:41
No 446697
      Geez Gakked by Zyrtec     

Nasty stuff it is indeed. This appeared after the second naptha pull, when I went to xylene and let it set. Has the amine in its tight little grasp and ate the better part of my yield from the Zyrtec tabs.

This is the variety of Orange II I believe. I will know next time to carefully a/b the pseudo from these tabs. I will have another batch before long and will update the notes.

The significance here is that it came through this process with the pseudo.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
07-15-03 00:01
No 447229
      is it just me or     

I read that last post 5 times and I STILL don't know if I understand what the hell it is saying. Just a little about cops forcing an inactive addition while keeping the additive from the inactives list? Am I close?

Karma? Karma is on Murphy's payroll. Nothing improper, it's freelance.
07-15-03 00:24
No 447241
      A Note for Tyvek Fans     

Just a note for those using Tyvek as filters: Tyvek is made of spun HDPE. The Chem Resistance Chart in VWR's catalog shows MEK or Acetone may do immediate damage at 20 Deg C. Don't know if that means it melts, decomposes or what, so you may want to be careful with your Tyvek and those solvents when heated or in full strength.
07-15-03 04:35
No 447305
      MEK (Acetone) wash disolved some of your Xtals?     

It wasn't mentioned, but for NewBees, MEK can hold as much as 12.5% H2O @ 25 deg., so if you think you see some of your shiny new crystals vanish in final MEK rinse, they probably did!

Easy to fix. First dump just enough MgSO4 (epsom salt) to cover the bottom of the first beaker (after removing the already used drying agents), and fill with the amount of MEK you want for the final wash so it can dry out while you're recovering the crystals you just lost.

Now pour solvent with the wet MEK that melted your crystals back into the last beaker used, and evap until DRY (don't rush and burn product). Reheat residue with fresh dryed naptha/xylene (estimate amount from lost crystal wieght), filter as before, but this time finish with your now DRY MEK by pouring it - through a filter - directly over your recovered crystals.  Next time remember to dry your MEK first, just like the other solvents used. Note: Acetone can be even wetter then MEK!
(Hive Bee)
07-15-03 05:16
No 447311
      Tyvek and acetone     

Tyvek is made of spun HDPE. The Chem Resistance Chart in VWR's catalog shows MEK or Acetone may do immediate damage at 20 Deg C. Don't know if that means it melts, decomposes or what, so you may want to be careful with your Tyvek and those solvents when heated or in full strength.

Thanks for the heads up. I checked my VWR and it does indeed have acetone/HDPE listed with NN. That's really weird, cuz I've had gallons of dry acetone stored in Nalgene HDPE bottles, some of them for over a year, and the acetone hasn't so much as discolored the plastic. I checked some other compatibility charts, and some of those had HDPE listed as having excellent resistance to acetone. One military chart even had HDPE ranked right up there with FEP teflon. I wonder why? I rarely use MEK, so I'm not really worried about that.


Just fuckin'do it already
(Hive Bee)
07-15-03 11:08
No 447379
      Orange II clarification - tyvek fiasco     

I read that last post 5 times and I STILL don't know if I understand what the hell it is saying. Just a little about cops forcing an inactive addition while keeping the additive from the inactives list? Am I close?

SWIM thinks he needs a clarification for which post you mean...wink...and what other vehicle the problem children could/might use to join the party other than the psuedo...granted SWIM can be a rather dense forest at times.

SWIM ran a tyvek trial and it was not the rounding success he envisioned. Now clearly, SWIM has a penchant for multitasking and the facilities just aren't set up to support it so much as retard it. From what he told me thogh the boatload of product either never made the journey out of the wrap or it was burned up in a ring at the bottom of a 2L filter flask when bringing the temp to 105. Zero fred appeared from 8 boxes of 24....then he lost his mind and forgot to crack the 120 name brand bluestamps in an attempt to salvage something from the night. Sure was fun straining out that plastic...after the damage was done.

So SWIM is going to see if an alky soak/pull in tyvek will produce fred.

In the meantime, last night he was able to run the STE using eight blisters of 24 each white 60's..."bullseye" brand that ryhmes with market...he is not thrilled with the fact that the fred pulled and then rinsed with plenty of MEK proceeded to turn orange when heated on foil...while the last perigogo's did not at this stage.

SWIM is gaining a little more insight each time as to the nature of the process of fred via OTC and hopes to one day contribute something of value to the bees (before he concentrates on any method besides pill extraction) for the assistance he has been given here in the forums to dream his own dream...

Now, however, he's off to see about putting together the pieces of pipe for a ghetto distillation setup currently on the non-existent bench.

hope for passage on the last plane out...
07-15-03 15:01
No 447446
      Has anyone tried calculating yield this way?     

Is there any reason %Yield can't be figured by simply subtracting it's wieght from the full wieght of original pills and comparing to wieght of dried solvent residue?  Wouldn't that give a better idea of purity (if residue is void of bitter pseudo taste)? Just a thought . . .
07-16-03 01:33
No 447600
      very clean 120s     

Just an other STE extraction... FUCK SWIC remembered he didnt have anymore MEK.

With some acetone at hand, SWIC dryed the extractions and it certainly had some other crap in it. It then boiled in 200ml xylene on high heat for a few minutes & decanted (~85% of it) then crashed w/ nice cold dry acetone.. SWIC discarded a gram or two of dirty goods. But finally SWIC got around a 70% yield. They were sparkly, salt-like pseudo crystals.  very clean!!
(Of Counsel)
07-16-03 05:24
No 447671

Translation, since even with the gakk the effect was felt from what was extracted:

Geez Gakked by zyrtec-D: Geezemeister's extraction of Zyrtec-D tablets by the Straight to E method alone resulted in the extraction of pseudoephedrine which was contaminated with the pill additive called Orange II by those bees who have written about it.

Nasty stuff it is indeed. Orange II gakk is not something you wish to deal with post-reaction as it destroys yield.

This appeared after the second naptha pull, when I went to xylene and let it set. The Orange II gakk only appeared in the third pull from the reaction fluid, which was done with xylene rather than hot naptha, and was allowed to sit in contact with reaction fluid overnight before being processed further. Has the amine in its tight little grasp and ate the better part of my yield from the Zyrtec tabs. Orange II had locked up much of the methamphetamine produced in the reaction of the pseudo I obtained from the zyrtec tabs and I cannot get the meth free of the orange stuff, no crystalization takes place, the shit just multiplies. 

This is the variety of Orange II I believe. The orange looking gakk in the reaction of the zyrtec tabs appears to be contaminated with the Orange II gakk. I think/ I will know next time to carefully a/b the pseudo from these tabs. Next time I extract from these pills I will sure as hell take the time to a/b the damn pseudo after extracting from the pills so I won't get that shit in my next batch.  will have another batch before long and will update the notes. If the a/b works, you will hear me brag about

See... that wasn't hard at all, was it?

(Note I made no mention of pints and drops were not employed in any explantion. )

The significance here is that it came through this process with the pseudo.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
07-16-03 06:25
No 447692
      Watt's Known!     

Geez: The OrangeII is a remarkable beast and a severe pain in the ass on the backside post-rxn a/b!
What's known so far is that:
1•It's solvent activated.
2•It multiply's and grows in basic solution
3•It's oily and hinders the formation of xtals.
4•It's a yield killer by UP to 50% of expected.

Just out of curiousity, What makes you think it isn't designed to rear it's ugly head in the frontside A/B?
It's obviously a Mo-Fo on the backside post-rxn A/B!
Ibee was able to recover 60% kick-ass meth from the rootbeer colored mess following a 30hr/100°C wet rxn but the dope was oily and wouldn't fully crystallize.
Although the crystal clarity of the final product indicated the absence of other impurities and a 4 day sleepless run  produced helicopters/shooting stars/other ill sides.

Peace of the reaction


Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.
(Hive Bee)
07-16-03 07:14
No 447703
      optimize first two VM&P pulls?     

The Orange II gakk only appeared in the third pull from the reaction fluid, which was done with xylene rather than hot naptha, and was allowed to sit in contact with reaction fluid overnight before being processed further.

Based on that being true if one were to optimize the first two pulls using VM&P or to pull all three with VM&P then, reasonbly, one should be able to elude the Orange II gakkattack. The third pull doesn't provide much anyway according to general concensus (at least, for bees who know the most effective drill and perform it correctly), right?

The significance here is that it came through this process with the pseudo.

SWIM would think that the significance would be that:

A)VM&P didn't activate it
  1.Xylene did...(what about hot Xylene?)
  2.Third pull did
  3.Third pull of room temp Xylene creates unique condition that precipitates O2gakkaTTack.

So "why" or "how" would be the next question for someone who understands chemistry.

yeah we got dogs and Valvoline, it's a pretty damn good time...
(Of Counsel)
07-16-03 14:38
No 447772
      de gakking     

The Orange II has to be avoided up front, pre reaction or you will lose yield, and lose heavily. I knew after the second natpha pull I had problems. The xylene did not pull the gakk, the pH of the solution going up pulled the gakk. On the third pull, after noting the low yield, I added additional NaOH solution as I knew I either had been gakked, or had a contaminant that interefered with the basic of the freebase meth. The higher pH brought the Orange.

That suggests it may be susceptible to an anhydrous A/B extraction of pfed at lower pH than 12.

The reason for posting this information in this thread is that the extraction technique this thread is about extracted this gakk with the pseudo. Xylene is not the problem.

Mostly harmless
07-16-03 17:54
No 447796
      Would a vac. distill pull the gak in the post...     

Would a steam distill pull the gak thru in the post rxn?
(Hive Bee)
07-17-03 21:54
No 448082
      right, thanks for the spoonfeed...     

The Orange II has to be avoided up front, pre
<snip nice simplification for SWIM, thank you very much>
extracted this gakk with the pseudo. Xylene is not the problem.

Okay, SWIM got his head wrapped around the issue now...gosh this forest is dense. SWIM was offline for awhile but will see if he can help Ware test the dot3 on his STE fred.

yes I think there were 5 good men here yesterday, (but they were asked to leave)
07-17-03 23:30
No 448104
      Hmmm, well the og2 is defanitly oil-like.     

Hmmm, well the og2 is defanitly oil-like. maybe that's why it likes fb ma so much? the RXN imho, makes the gakk one clever litter basterrd. It's rank shit that's for sure. the rxn has gotta change or activate the gak somehow, cause everyone started out with glass shards of pseudo, and rextl only AFTER the rxn really kicks it in the ass. swic noticed unusual rp tendancies in the og2 rxn. Like the rp was being eaten alive...pretty much making the reflux difficult but sustainable w/ some rp here & there..
07-22-03 00:17
No 448899

if you dry all your solvents it helps to stop the gakk also
when you are done with the whole prossess try to re crystalize with hot dry denatured this will couse a new thing to happen whin I did this it made a wax that was not found threw any of the previous steps to break off the psudo then strain crap off then let recrystalize once it is a crystal add more denatured to it .with a thin coat across the top scrape to make sure that it is all crystal becouse i found a second lair wax before i got a fine beautyfull crystal and i didnt loss much weight from 11.6 it went to 9.7 and it was clean and tasty once fired . also has anyone thought about methyl isobutyl ketone   and not mek that might be a better ketone to work with psudo

Chicken head stricks again
thanks Kernal u helped us a lot

07-22-03 00:45
No 448904
      swim did a STE extraction, dryed, rextlized w/     

swim did a STE extraction, dryed, rextlized w/ denatured for 5 hours,
boiled in natural solvent then crashed with dry acetone.

swim had good crystals. when he pulled the post rxn after settling the based aqua for several hours there was an inch of dark orange gak on the bottom.
No conventional STE methods well remove the gak if it is in there shaggy.
(Hive Bee)
07-22-03 01:17
No 448910
      polite request from some Oz beez     

Could one of the US bees do a small test to see if your VM&P Naphtha maintains its properties relating to its attraction to H2O molecules present in added IPA, when the aromatic hydrocarbon xylene is added to the naphtha before the IPA is added?
The best idea is to probably add hydrated IPA to a small amount of naptha/xylene.

It would bee really appreciated.
07-28-03 07:23
No 450307
      super clean pseudo     

Pretty simple! I tried this and it works awesome. I showed my buddy a dish of it and he thought it was shit! Take a 20 oz. soda bottle and fill it with pills add water, shake it up and let the pills dissolve. filter the water. cook the water down until it gets thick. Let it cool. Add some lye until the pseudo water turns thick and almost solid like and filter the solid like shit out and keep it. Wash the yellowish crude with a litle water and throw it in very warm toluene and throw the solvent in the freezer over night.good morning you have pseudo crystals. rinse with clean solvent if you want. simple and works great. I hope I dont offend anyone, just thought I would give people an idea.
(Of Counsel)
07-28-03 16:59
No 450392

That water-based a/b will pull more gakk than pseudo. Just because the stuff comes out white does not mean it is pseudo. You are extracting every PEG-linked inactive and activating emulsifiers when you add that water. Basing the way you suggest will alter the solubility of PEG400 and PEG 8000 --making both of them nonpolar soluble. You also are bringing any povidone with the stuff. Orange I and Orange II will be your constant companion.

If you examine the extraction threads in the digest thread at the top of this formula, you will notice not one of them suggests extracting with a water-based a/b. Do you think there might be some reason for that? Or do you assume that no one here ever thought to do a water-based a/b for pseudo?

You don't even take the time to mention the pills you claim to extract successfully by this method. You then suggest the method is a universal extraction technique. It is not, and your post is misinforming because it makes that suggestion. At one time the water a/b was THE a/b method of choice for pseudo extraction. At that time, you could extract most OTC pills with MeOH. Pills have been through several generations of changes since that time.

Mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
07-28-03 17:51
No 450403
      Everyone is after that 15 min...     

Hey VE & geez, I was watching S2E on t.v. and Mr. Jetson ran out of VM&P, having only about 300ml. Anyway, he went ahead with the first extract thinking he could finish later. Bringing the soup to a low rolling boil, Jetson filters the extract and heads out to spacely sprockets. Later the next day, he is ready to finish the task of extracting some sue-dough. He grabbed the container from the first extraction and looking into the beaker, it was seen to have a major crystal garden inside. Jetson poured off the fluid and foiled a sample. Sue Dough visited, and left a lil black residual, but no ash. Following an MEK washing, a faint brownie outline, from a second sample. Did the rest of the S2E per write-up, adding the solution from the first extract & pour off to the new and boiling batch. Jetson was seen helping Elroy with a Push/Pull using the Sue Dough from the crystal garden, and Elroy got an A from the teacher on quality, but a C on yeild. ANY comments or insight as to those xtals 1/2way through the show? The pills were mainly 60s (common) along with a few 120s for a robust yet eloquent bouquet....(LOL)

Karma? Karma is on Murphy's payroll. Nothing improper, it's freelance.
(Of Counsel)
07-28-03 18:00
No 450405
      Second set of pseudo     

As the solvent mixture cools some additional pseudo will precipitate. This pseudo is gakked, and the gak makes it a little more soluble in the solvent at temp than clean pseudo HCl. That little fact also explains the lower yield.
You were gakked. The second batch of pseudo that precipitates out of the naptha/xylene mix is going to be dirty and must be cleaned further before it is reacted or it will bring gakk to the reaction with it. If you had a lot of these, your solvents were not dry enough to start with. (I made a quantity of IPA/natpha in a gallon jar--and left the salt and epsom salt in the jar; I hope that by preparing the solution earlier, it will be drier.

Save these tag ends of dirty pseudo up and combine them and do a xylene clean on them followed by an alcohol/acetone recrystalization.

Mostly harmless
08-01-03 05:36
No 450984
      The Bull's-eye Place is watching you...     

Just a little insight about the “Bull’s-eye” place. I noticed it referenced several time in this post. They (the “Bull’s-eye” place) employ high definition cameras in the Checkouts, Pharmacies, & PARKING LOTS (to insure the proper dissemination of the license plate). This from a friend being followed to the house after a 6 week documentation of purchasing habits. Luckily she stopped by the house before someone else took the supplies to the place. This is there effort to retain Pseudo stock and denture crime.

This lurker is out of the closet!!!! After how many years???

Knowledge is the KEY to any success that is not an ACCIDENT…
08-02-03 06:04
No 451171
      About Steps 3 & 7 of New Straight to E     

In step 7 I'm pretty sure that you just filter it to a new flask.. but i had to make sure i didnt mess up.. but my question is do you filter step 7 back into the elemeyer flask in step 3 w/the solids or bottom layer? You said only 1 elemeyer flask was needed so this kinda threw me off..

>03) Filter this into the elemeyer flask leaving any solids or bottom liquid behind and then transfer this solution into the second clean beaker.<

>07) Place a funnel with filter paper in to the elemeyer flask.
Filter the solvent mixture while hot leaving as much of the solids
in the beaker as possible.<
08-02-03 23:19
(Rated as: insignificant)
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
08-03-03 03:22
No 451348

boiling naptha+isopropyl alcohol doesnt seem like it would be a good idea,

 I think you had better do a little more reading... Making meth should'nt seem like a good idea following that line of thinking.

Tighten Up!  (UH)
(Hive Bee)
08-03-03 07:29
No 451382
      If it don't     

If one thinks it doesn't sound like a good idea, that person should probably leave the kitchen and go watch tv. Thanks geez, I'm catching on here and there. BTW I have gone back to grinding 60s as in the dreams I have, 120s get a blowout and the insides dissolve/pill mass leaves the "husk" but the 60s... Well I watched a rerun of a S2E and the 60s weren't dissolving completly, I ended up taking a bunch of dried pill mass from Mr. Jetson and pulling out a shitload of 60s and crushed em' mortar and pestle style. S2E again and BINGO there is where the stunted yeild was hiding. Antiways, Thanks again on the clarification as to the gakkifination.
Back to the study hall. lol

Karma? Karma is on Murphy's payroll. Nothing improper, it's freelance.
(Hive Addict)
08-03-03 10:12
No 451402
      White 60's     

All the white 60's that Ibee has disected as of late have a husk. He was amazed at the bulk of trash shells left over after crushing with mortar and pestal then passing through a fine seive strainer.
Any bees still grinding white 60's, 120's and 240's with blenders and coffee grinders are getting more than they bargained for.frown
Mnkyboy's cracked pearl technology is less labor intensive than individual dry cracking.
Ibee is working on developing a method for dissolving the shells since he has soooo many specimens.
This is in keeping with his philosophy of taking out the gaak rather than taking out the pfed.
Peace of the reaction


Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.
08-19-03 19:11
No 454542
      what does the salt do     

Swim loves this but doesn't understand what the salt does.  He asked a friend and they thought it destablized the water to help the epsom absorb it easier.  But SWIM just doesn't know.

this is great
(Of Counsel)
08-19-03 22:43
No 454569

Salt helps dewater the alcohol. IPA Alcohol is not miscible in salt water the way it is in fresh water. Adding salt to the IPA/water solution turns the water to salt water, which will separate from the alcohol.

Mostly harmless
08-26-03 07:48
No 455723
      Synonyms or ingredients for VM&P     

Over here in The Lucky Country, sadly no suppliers have heard of the solvent known in other lands as VM & P Naptha.

It is more than likely that the same solvent is known by a different name over here. However it is hard to find out what that is, without some indication as to the properties, or constituents, of VM & P.

Could any of you be of help here? Like, what is the boiling range of VM & P?  I assume that it is over 105'C? And are there any trade names that it might go by in the land of Oz?

Appreciate any assistance. Cheers to VideoEditor!
(Hive Bee)
08-26-03 09:25
No 455740

VM&P naphtha is a combination of octane and nonane. b.p. range 125-151

I don't know in what proportions. But a 50/50 mix is safe.

none of the big three fuel companies have an equivilant as such. Really, I stopped at the research in to what it was.

I don't think the U.S. bees had much information on it's properties to give, because it's easy to acquire in the US.
(Hive Bee)
08-27-03 10:54
No 455959
      heres some     

E-Z Varnish Makers & Painters Naphtha is a faster evaporating solvent than mineral spirits or paint thinner but is similar in strength. When used as a paint thinner its faster evaporation rate will shorten paint's drying time slightly. Add sparingly to oil based paints and coatings to achieve the desired viscosity for additional coverage, improved flow, penetration and leveling. Use to clean painting tools and spills before they dry. Do not use with latex paints, shellacs, lacquers or epoxies. E-Z VM&P Naphtha may be used as a cleaner to remove wax and dissolve grease or oil.
Specifications Typical*
Gravity, API at 60oF (D - 287) 57 - 63 59.5
Specific Gravity at 60oF (D - 891) 0.7275 - 0.7507 0.7408
Color (D - 156) 30 min 30
Color, Pt - Co (D - 1209) 10 max <10
Flash Point, oF, T. C. C. (D - 56) 50 min (10.0oC) 52 (11.1oC)
Kauri - Butanol Value (D - 1133) 30 min 32
Aniline point, oF (D - 611) 153 (67.2oC)
Acidity of Distillation Residue
(D - 1093) Neutral Neutral
Sulfur H2S / Doctor (D - 235) Negative Negative
Corrosion (D - 130) 1 max 1
Composition, Volume %
Total Aromatics 1.0 max <0.1
Distillation, oF (D - 86)
IBP 245 min(118.3oC) 250 (121.1oC)
50% 265 max (129.4oC) 258 (125.5oC)
Dry Point 300 max (148.9oC) 287 (141.7oC)
Shipping Data:
Pounds per Gallon, 60oF (15.6oC)6.17
Kg per Liter, 60§F (15.6oC) 0.74
Flash Point, oF (T. C. C.) 52 (11.1oC)
DOT Label Required Flammable Liquid
DOT Identification No. UN 1256
E - Z VM&P Naphtha meets the following standard specifications:
ASTM D - 3735, Type I and Type III
C. A. S. No.: 64742 - 89 - 8

went astray yesterday on a hit o weed. I'm now here, and I fear, now I am on speed.
(Hive Bee)
08-27-03 11:52
No 455968
      here this is cool

went astray yesterday on a hit o weed. I'm now here, and I fear, now I am on speed.
(Hive Bee)
08-27-03 20:35
No 456037
      why, thank you!     

See that CAS#, that isn't VM&P Naphtha. VM&P is a primary constituent of that, but that's available in australia by the big three fuel companies.
It covers VM&P naphtha but it isnt quite as consistant. Still, I'd throw it in the pot.

In any case this whole procedure isn't up to Ozpill standards and it isnt worth acquiring the VM&P to test it. At least not as a complete means to an end.

There's other work to bee done...coolcool

The pdf was excellent man thanks! offtopic but youll get in trouble not me.(for that) laugh
(Of Counsel)
08-27-03 21:11
No 456049
      not enough for all pills     

halfkast-- the procedure is not enough for all American pills either. There are some pills that this technique will, by itself, produce clean pseudo ready to react. Some white sixites pull very cleanly by this method, but not all of them. There are some, e.g. generic 120's, that are simply not sufficiently cleaned by this process alone to react without expecting yield losses and contaminated meth.

I have polished the pseudo post extraction with some success. Recently I did microwave solvent boils of the pill mass, then extracted via STE and had excellent success extracting clean pseudo from very gakky pills.  That one-two punch will be applied via sledgehammer to the next few boxes of 120's that fall into my hands. Results will be described in general terms or pornographic detail, depending on who does what to whom. crazy

Cookie Monster
(Hive Bee)
08-27-03 22:25
No 456059
      your right of course     

I think the problem here is magnified greatly by the fact that decongestants aren't as freely obtained as there. So brands and variety of techniques don't get tested.

Oz bees problems are the same as yours really

American bees have done a good job on pills, and I've never seen you guys complain about oz bees lack of input. *cry*..other than that your a disgrace to humanity laugh

availability of pills in australia
this could change soon believe it or not, and not get worse. Wool***ths is planning to challenge the law which doesn't allow supermarkets (grocery stores) to set up a pharmacuetical department. It's still unclear though.
09-04-03 03:11
No 457095
      SR8T TO E     

Sorry to bother such a high bee such as yourself
but swim had a real shitty extraction with this useing actifools from the 1.00 store 20 box of 24 count 60's
at 105c instead of my lil white friend popping out like i have read when it hit 105c swim saw something and was evry happy but when flitered was left with a white ball of cotton type gakk? what went wrong ? every thing was done to a tee ? swim saved theslovent ectracts and the gakk ball of all white fiber like stuff .... any advice?
(Hive Bee)
09-04-03 11:39
No 457148
      cost of pills outrageous?     

how many pills and what cost? Is not this process outragously expensive? buying pills over the counter then the cost of solvents. Then you have to manufacture amphetamine from your ephridrine.Has anyone done the calculations?
(Hive Bee)
09-04-03 19:20
No 457179

Sounds to me like you might have had the hotplate turned up too high.  When the hotplate is too hot the last of the alcohol boils off too fast and the pseudo either sticks to the bottom of the flask or clumps together as you described.  Allowing it to boil off slower gives it time to form little needles.

It wasn't Me!
09-04-03 22:45
No 457210
      THEN WHAT IS IT?     

this stuff is not what i want it is some kinda new gakk?
maybe thats why they where in a 1.00 store here
tried everything to clean up thid fluff and nothing even upon cooling ....

ok also swim tried 10 packs of same brand with str8 to b and upon cooling of the vm&p naphtha i have nothing !

oh well the source of these lil bitches was asking too many questions last buy so oh well ....
(Hive Bee)
09-05-03 03:03
No 457246

"oh well the source of these lil bitches was asking too many questions last buy so oh well .... "

Whats your excuse for buying 10 boxes of cold medicine?
I'd love to hear it.

Laying down with your eyes closed is NOT a subsitute for sleeping.
09-05-03 03:56
No 457250

ok no prob maybe a lil creative thought might help ya

I told the manger of the store that i buy and sell stuff at flea markets and also bought 20.00 of razors and hair gel [ both of which i will use anyway ]
He laughed when i told him that i resold all the cold meds for 2.50 mark up  box and 1.00 on gel and razors .....
but i asked for help to a question , not a lame attempt at a smart ass remark tongue
09-06-03 17:32
No 457469

I was just wondering if anybody has had any success extracting pseudo from "Sudafed 12 hour" 120mg caplets with this straight to e procedure? I was not sure if there was any other inert in the time release form that would contaminate the pseudo? Anybody know about this?
(Hive Bee)
09-17-03 06:54
No 459523

Please scroll back to the beginning of this thread and read it a bit more carefully. you seemed to have missed the part that 120s are written about exclusively......(AHEM)blush

There is no such thing as "effortless", because effortless takes too much effort.
09-18-03 00:47
No 459652
      can i please get help?     

can anyone please help me ... i never got any anwsers
09-18-03 02:47
No 459672
      This crack head has been dreaming about this...     

This crack head has been dreaming about this Straight to E alot and now have some questions.
I Had a dream. 2bx 12hr 120 worked great don't remmber if they were generic or not.
I had another dream. 2bx 12hr 120 this time I got a bloob of white shit had pseudo HCL in it. Now all my 120 dreams are like this. Everything is done as written, the ISO was 91%. I dried as described in the write up for the naptha/ISO mix. Then dried again when mixed with Naptha.

I found that the white shit desolves in water/ISO so I desolved the blob in water and based it, then I  Extracted with xylene evaporated that and had 1/4 G of pseudo base. Desolved that in Hot Naptha then into the freezer. Doing this I have finaly 2G of pseudo base. This is after about 4 dreams with 2bx 12hr 120's. I think the first time must have been with older pills or something.

1. Is there any way to stop the white bloob from hell?
2. Do I need to convert the 2g's pseudo base back to HCL and do acetone wash/soak to remove povidone?

I had another dream with 2bx generic 60 only had Chlorpheniramine maleate 4mg ,megnesium stearate and microcrystalline cellulose. This was a very strange dream. I soaked the pilles in MEK because I had no dry acetone and I read that MEK is like acetone. I was doing this to try and remove the Chlorpheniramine maleate. Decanted that stinking ass MEK and let PM air dry then I added the ISO/NAptha heated till boil filtered did this 3 times whent to add the Xylene and noticed the ISO/Naptha was full of tiney crystals allready. This never happened on the 120's. Whell the xylene was added and when heated crystals redesolved and then percipatated back out around 100c and now I have 2g's of pseudo HCL or that's what It should be. But I dont understand why it will not desolve in cold ISO. The pseudo HCL form the 120's desolved fine in water or ISO cold.

3. Did I do something to the Pseudo by soaking in MEK?
4. Can I use this 2g's pseudo HCL in a HI/RP reflux? or does it need further cleaning?
5. Is there any other drug that I could pratice A/B on. i.e. something cheep not watched and that does not have to be extracted form gaks. Any help would be greatly appreceated.

Also geezemeister I read a post of yours covering the A/B on Meth and now I can't find it. It had to do with little HCL evap more h20/hcl evap so you don't kill all your dope just the last bit. Thnx ppl for all the good post.
09-21-03 08:31
No 460193
      Tetra vs. Xylene     

SYMHMIC tried the STE more or less according to the VE original post - with the exception of no xylene, had a fresh can-o-tetra however.
Fear at such high boiling temps at the end - pushed ahead anyway, and was awarded with a sudden crackling crash-out of the pfed-hcl. Worked like a charm!
The only way this could really be an ongoing solution for SYMHMIC would be to make a very large supply of the juice atop mgso4/nacl to keep on hand.
As a last-minute ghetto throw-down, no way.
Thanks VE!
(Hive Bee)
09-22-03 04:33
No 460310
      the waxy blues     

Swig n Co have been playing with the STE of late. 
Since Blue Sulfates are swigs game,  the STE forms the first part of the extraction method.  Also in this part of the world VM&P naptha is non-existent.  Experimentors substituted White Spirits (WS) for VM&P, as after extensive searching found similar properties with boiling point,  fuel fraction etc. 
So its off to work we go.

The iso - WS hot extraction of the pills works fantastic!  This will certainly become a standard start to the clean,  as the G man hates crushing. 

The problems began when evapping off the iso.  Blue dye/wax comes out of the hot solution as the iso boils,  leaving a heavy sticky residue.  Hot MEK does clean this up,  although
after several boils the pm retains a blue colour.

being an impatient lad,  swig probably over-basified his A/B
(standard water A/B this time!!)
destroying his yield ( < 50% on 12 packs )

However,  obtained pfed HCl was of a much higher quality then has been seen on the last few outings,  with a high smokeability rating ( as a test ).

Since toluene is used as the np in the A/B,  some pre A/B -  post STE boils in the stuff are going to be attempted,  as are further MEK and or tone washes. 
Following that,  swig wants to try a WAB into tone,  cos titrations fuck him off. 

Cheers and goodnite

Spirits of earth bring unto me
(Hive Bee)
09-23-03 04:12
No 460482
      Adding JD to the mix     

Anyone have any comments on adding JD/TCE instead of the xylene? Or adding JD/Xylene?

JD seems to take care of the OG2 so adding it in with Xylene or TCE would reduce the total number of steps and maybe help with a purer product?

JD = Japan Drier

~~Fuck the Birch~~
(Hive Bee)
09-23-03 06:21
No 460496
      The PCE/tetra should bee used first, to likely     

The PCE/tetra should bee used first, to likely remove polymers which could react and form a mess with solvents including water used later.

Polymers can do magic, the more things they come in contact with, the more likely it is that they will come in to contact with a "Magic catalyst".

Though tetra could work supremely well if added to the STE as a BOTTOM layer. Test it. With or without xylene.
09-23-03 06:36
No 460497
      so, what swidk is suggesting is ...     

have the tetra as a bottom layer in the vmp/iso boils? that way, the decanted vmp/iso can simply be boiled alone until the crash?
09-23-03 10:20
No 460520
      Hate to break it to ya     

tetra is miscible with the vmp/iso mix.
swymtic took a mix of red hots and 240's and first tried boiling with the majic juice - the 240's were bastions of resistance. added some tetra - no bottom layer, complete mix. 240's still held fast. finally strained of the liquid and bashed the muck with a hammer, recombined with the liquid, boiled away. filtered. combined with an equivalent of tetra and boiled furiously, resulting in lightly pink, yet nicely formed pfedhcl in exceptional yield that cleaned up nicely with mek, although still very slightly pink.
later attempted rxn failed due to other sloppy reasons.
(Hive Bee)
09-23-03 13:07
No 460535

iso is miscible with practically everything.

ahgreich, forgive me, I remembered that late laugh

Do the tetra wash first, you shouldn't lose any yield if you decant correctly. Geez himself precedes with boils before the STE even commences these days.
(Hive Addict)
09-24-03 01:35
No 460633
      Message of caution     

Please be careful with what you choose to mix TCE with!
Some harmful compounds could result! I don't suggest just randomly mixing chemicals with tetra as a workaround to the foilers without having a solid understanding of the results!
Just a word of caution to newbees and oldbees alike!
TCE and xylene are also miscible from Ibee's experience!
But the miscibility in some concoctions is dependant on ratio as well. Especially those that utilize H2O as a buffer of sorts.
Ibee's IDEA method is very similar to that mix you speak of.
The acetone locks the alky/tce layers and prevents separation. Without the tone, settling occurs and separates out to three layers! The exact composition of the layers was not analysed and Ibee thinks the bottom was a water layer from the water contained in the Denat and Iso!
Just some notes from the FarOut Side!wink
Peace of the reaction


Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.
09-29-03 07:34
      84%,,,and very clean,, using white 60's
(Rated as: incomprehensible)
(Hive Bee)
09-29-03 20:20
No 461666
      After sometime off, SWIM wishes to report some     

After sometime off, SWIM wishes to report some yields:

40 cnt 120 mg 12hr
Final dry weight: 4.15g of a possible 4.8 g.

A few mods to the procedure:  A vacume pump is used for filtering the Naptha/ISO/E.  4 Squares of double ply Toliet Paper are used as the filter.

After the second heating with the Xylol, a fan is placed above the beaker blowing air onto the liquid.  Massive crystals start forming.  Fan is removed.  Contents allowed to heat back up.  Once a large amount of crystals have parcipitated out, the liquid is filtered through a Colman Lantern Filter (small, NP safe plastic w/ a fine wire screen...~ 2USD).  A vacume pump is used here also to aid in the filtering/drying process.  MEK is poured over the filtrate several times while the reciever flask is still under vacume.  Contents of filter are tapped out of the filter onto dry paper towels and patted.  Filtrate is then allowed to air dry the rest of the way.

God Damn!!! VE is the MANcool

A Terrible though could have a Terribly long carrier
(Of Counsel)
09-29-03 23:15
No 461685
      post your finals!     

Good to hear from you Mnkyboy78!

I like the vacuum filtration modification.

Bad news is that in my experience with the generic 120's (which come with polysorbate 80) the method does not get the polysorbate 80 out and it will be found in the final product.

mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
09-30-03 03:06
No 461736
      Cloudy mixture     

After adding the drying agents to the vm&p and ipa the solution was cloudy. The solution was allowed to sit for 20min then filtered through a charmin plug and three coffee filters. The obtained liquid is still murky but not as cloudy.

Is this ok for psuedo boils?

Edit: Charmin plug topped by folded charmin squares and three coffee filters used resulting in much clearer liquid.

JD/TCE wash had been performed on gup first leaving a slightly green/blue tint pill mass. Pills dried white.

After first ipa/naptha boil resulting liquid is aqua blue.

Edit2: Second ipa/naptha boil is also aqua blue but much lighter than first.

Is it normal for crystals to begin falling out of the ipa/naptha solution as it cools before xylene is added?

Third Edit: Solution stayed aqua blue during final boil with ipa/naptha/xylene. Resulting crystals are aqua blue even after generous MEK wash. Waiting for crystals to dry to see how much they weigh from maximum theoretical yield of 11.52g.

~~Fuck the Birch~~
(Hive Bee)
09-30-03 06:12
No 461767
      SWIM doesn't filter the Naptha/ISO...Just lets     

SWIM doesn't filter the Naptha/ISO...Just lets it settle for ~20 min.  The Charmin Plug used for filtering the Naptha/ISO/E solution is tightly packed, hence the use of the vacume pump.

A Terrible though could have a Terribly long carrier
(Hive Bee)
09-30-03 06:52
No 461779
      Hey Joe420, that cottony shit ain't gaak!     

That's the clean Pfed my man. Don't throw that shit away, or you've wasted your time. When clean pfed is crashed out of a NP solvent by gassing, cooling, or any other method, it will usually have an "applesaucy" appearance while still in suspension in the NP. Once the pfed is filtered and dried, if it is clean, it will often have a cotton-like appearance. The cottony look simply means that the crystals were crashed out of the NP in a rapid fashion, and are very small with little air pockets between them, making them look fluffy. If you want big crunchy crystals, try dissolving the cottony ones in boiling ISO, add a little acetone to the alky, and allow the solution to cool very slowly, over the course of several hours. This re-xtalizing procedure will remove even more impurities, and will often leave the perpetrator with thick nail-like crystals which will readily reduce to our favorite amine in a HI rxn.


Just fuckin'do it already
09-30-03 20:53
No 461931

I thought maybe it was cause it was sol in h2o but not in naphta but tried to recrystal and got nothing .... and there was way too much of it ! weight and was 12gram when should have been at best 6.5-7gram ! have not tried jap dry and i can't locate it
(Hive Bee)
10-01-03 04:36
No 461988
      jap drier     

Hello childeren,
                  If you are an oz bee, and are having difficulty locating japan drier, it is probably because it dosen't exist here in our neck of the woods. Well actually it does, it's just called something different!
We here, down under, like to call it 'terebine'. Available from all leading paint stores as a drying accelerant for oil based paints.
A little research has turned up the following:
72% liquid hydrocarbons(mineral tupentine)
14% cobalt octoate
14% manganese octoate
From what Swibn can gather, this has very similar properties to the jap stuff.
Swibn is about to run out and grab some as well as some MEK and give it a go on some know what-azin.
Shall post results soon.

(Stoni's sexual toy)
10-01-03 11:05
No 462052
      > 14% cobalt octoate > 14% manganese...     

> 14% cobalt octoate
> 14% manganese octoate

You people use that crap to extract pills???
One question: WHY???

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
(Hive Bee)
10-02-03 00:28
No 462150
      not to exrtract pills     

Os, but to remove the orange nasty before utilising your favourite extraction method.

(Hive Bee)
10-02-03 00:46
No 462159
      jap drier     

JAPAN DRIER (lead free)

 Used by the Professional Painter,  Japan Drier is a special blend of petroleum hydrocarbons and a combination of high quality drying agents.  This blend of agents accelerates the drying process of oil based paints and coatings.
When faced with damp or cool climate this product is very effective when mixed with paint to speed up the drying time between applications or touch.   The lead free driers are the same basic driers used to produce paints, including Cobalt and Manganese.  Use 2 to 4 ounces per gallon of oil-based paint or varnish and mix thoroughly.  Always check and follow paint manufacturers recommendation for thinning. 

(Of Counsel)
10-02-03 01:43
No 462170
      why japan drier     

Why JD?

I have used it diluted in naptha, boiled the GUPs in it, then boiled with naptha again and then twice with MEK. The pseudo so obtained had none of the persistent orange gakk that has plagued me this year.

I then diluted it 1:10 (I believe it can be diluted much further) in MEK  and did a microwave solvent boil of the gups in that solution, and had the same results.

It seems to break the newer gaks into components that can be removed with standard solvent boils or microwave boils prior to extraction of the pseudo. Haven't found anything else that works as it does.

mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
10-02-03 07:14
No 462230
      I'm having a feeling that ...     

I'm having a feeling that n,n,n-trimethylbenzene could bee doing some or all of the cleaning work.
It's included in lots of Japan Driers but not terebine...

Though if this is the case I'm sure the task of finding something is even more simple.

You don't need 2 Bee High to follow the goings-on @The-Hive--Just Addikted!
(Hive Bee)
10-03-03 11:12
No 462368
      maybe i'm just a tard and all..     

been a long time in hiding but swibb inadvertantly seemed to bypass the orange II (poly-pyropovirolidone?). unless he's just balls to the wall lucky and/or crazy an 100% ipa extract just after solvent boils and subsequent re-xtal rather than evaporation seems to shed the sticky shit. granted swibb's %'s have been affected as the crap gets more and more concentrated towards the final pulls from the ipa. maybe swibb has just gotten good pills. but we are talking about the green 24/60's one might target in a redish super store?
(Of Counsel)
10-03-03 15:50
No 462386
      not those     

No, you are wise and fortunate in your pill selection, barkingburro. Stray from those to the more heavily gakked versions remaining on the store shelves in my territory and the orange will bite with even sharper teeth. Those pills don't even make it to the shelves where I live. They disappear out the back doors of every retailer for twice the shelf price, paid in cash, with promises of more the next time.

mostly harmless
(Stoni's sexual toy)
10-04-03 00:08
No 462439
      I'm just wondering why anyone would ...     

I'm just wondering why anyone would intentionally contaminate their precursors with toxic, hard to remove heavy metals and complicate the whole deal by adding yet another component to the max and another variable to the equation.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
(Hive Addict)
10-04-03 08:17
No 462496

Are you keeping the secret to the removal of the orange gaak to yourself??? 

Obviously, there should be better, less toxic methods to remove it. Unfortunately, we have not found such a method so therefore we use what we can obtain in order to get clean psuedo.  What pills do you use?  Have you had to deal with the orange gaak I or II and if so then how did you do it?

It wasn't Me!
10-04-03 10:45
No 462505
      jap dryer.pdf
(Hive Bee)
10-04-03 14:00
No 462536
      ok, so the straight to e is is it for swibb     

ok, swibb took the plunge and deviated to time release 120's just to try this method. impressive. was slightly concerned at first cause swibb didn't follow directions as he should have and didn't hit 105. swibb also had concerns about the psue as it looked different upon filtration than his evap/crashed psue norm. upon rextal in ipa 100% all looked well. something to note however, maybe it's just swibb's manhandling of his dope, but the yield rate seemed to be lower the smaller the number of boxes porocessed. as a test swibb tried 1 box and had a 40% return, tried 3 and got 70... maybe swibb just gets lazy with small amounts of dope, or maybe a minimum amount of psue will always be lost due to things like adherence to the beakers, etc.

has any-one answered the dry matrix formula question yet? i couldn't find an answer.

wow, it's really cool not haveing to resort to long evaps to preserve yield. speed chemists being patient... ha there's a dichotomy for ya. thanks again swive. hope you don't live near swibb and i feel for any competitors that do. not that any-one ever does this sort of thing for money or anything... ya, ok... bok bok
(Hive Bee)
10-04-03 16:53
No 462552
      >>maybe swibb just gets lazy with small...     

>>maybe swibb just gets lazy with small amounts of dope, or maybe a minimum amount of psue will always be lost due to things like adherence to the beakers

That is loss that should never happen, as it's the loss that is easily avoidable.

Yes you are quite lazy. smile

has any-one answered the dry matrix formula question yet? i couldn't find an answer.

So where did your 120s come from, Transylvania?

How do long evaps "preserve yield" ?
Invariably clumsy are we? tongue

You don't need 2 Bee High to follow the goings-on @The-Hive--Just Addikted!
(Hive Bee)
10-06-03 06:53
No 462881
      clumsy and lazy?     

now i take offence to that one :). lazy, yes at times, but clumsy, no. by long evap i mean as compared to an evap with heat. ergo, a long evap with no heat will yield more than a short evap WITH heat.

ok, so the transylvania comment meant what? are 'extended release' by nature all dry matrix? if so that's a new one to me...

ok and onto some other observations with straight to e...

it would behoove any bee to test one pill or one box of pills before going without a grinding of the pills. swibb encountered a batch of 60's sold in 48 packs and with tripdoline that did NOT dissolve/disentigrate during the boil. yield ended up at about 50% after reprocessing, and there seems to be more lurking but the whole thinik looked like a helluva mess from where i was sitting.
10-07-03 02:42
No 463076
      Could You Please.............     

Could you please help with swims yield problem? Swim uses this method and is very happy with the quality product that is achieved. However, his yields seem a little low. 70% is tops on the comeback. He followed the procedure to the letter as he has every time since it was first posted. (Well done by the way)The only thing that swim notices is that some of the pills are not dissolved and still maintain the original round shape (white 60's), could it bee the time he boils the extraction liquid and the pills is to short and he needs to let them boil longer before pouring off and adding more extraction liquid? Swim is leary of scorching them and ruining the whole damn thing. Any help would be appreciated.

awayman "foiled again"
(Of Counsel)
10-07-03 13:44
No 463186
      crunch them up     

Awayman: you won't hurt anything by crunching the pills up with a pestle or grinding them in a coffee grinder. If they are not dissolving, you probably are leaving a little pseudo behind.

The yield will be dependent on the inactives present to a degree. The cleaner the pills, the better the yield. I've gotten as high as 98% from generic white 60's with two listed inactives and gotten clean pseudo. There is one generic I have gotten 98% from, and it has six or seven listed inactives. The generic 120's have not yielded cleanly for me by this process, and the yields from them when they are precleaned have been in the typical 60% range.

One other thing to keep in mind is that once that alcohol/naptha solution is boiling, you are rapidly losing the alcohol. Boil too long and you reduce the alcohol you have available to dissolve the pseudo, have mostly naptha and maybe not quite enough alcohol. I did that the second on third time I did this process, went back and boiled the GUPS with more alcohol/naptha solution and picked up the missing pseudo.

VE's point was that you don't HAVE to grind the pills. It was not that you SHOULD NOT grind them.

mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
10-07-03 19:29
No 463219
      so far so - pretty good     

well, swibb will concur with geez on the generic 120's. yield after shedding polysorbate 80 is back down to 40% on them... any ideas on how to shed it b4 the straight to e? if i'm correct then polysorbate 80 is only in the outer jacket of these 120's. any ideas?

the generic 60's... 2 for 2 have needed a grinding prior to processing.
(Hive Bee)
10-08-03 00:07
No 463271
      polysorbates and polysorbate80 Very sol in...     

polysorbates and polysorbate80

Very sol in water; sol in alcohol, cottonseed oil, corn oil, ethyl acetate, methanol, toluene.

I don't think the outter jacket is polysorbate.
I very recently read that DCM is the solvent used to coat many pharmacuetical tablets.

You don't need 2 Bee High to follow the goings-on @The-Hive--Just Addikted!
10-08-03 10:43
(Rated as: UTFSE!)
10-10-03 20:32
No 463821
      Thank you! Geez.     

Thanks Geez, it seems you are always very helpful and damn fast also! Soon after swim posted he went and ran the leftovers through a second time and made up for a considerable amount of the lost percentage. Swim thinks the alcohol could be maybee bumped up to 75ml per box and it wouldn't affect the outcome in a negative way.
Thanks again bee. wink

awayman "foiled again"
10-11-03 11:48
No 463955
      Hold On.............     

Swim has a friend, he uses the 24hr models and this method and is pulling yields in the high 90%'s. Lots and lots of waste come out of the 24hr models but he swears and swim HAS give his gear a whirl and it's right on time. Plus he is also getting higher yields due to the very clean pseudo produced from this method. Swim thinks he reduces them with a 1:1:.7(Hypo:Pseudo:I2) and a 8 to 12 hr reflux or until clear, bases with 20% lye solution, uses tolulene as NP, dry gases with HCL, or drops Muratic in with dh20 to catch what it pushes out and evaps. ANYWAY, the 24's work fine.

awayman "foiled again"
12-16-03 19:13
      (Post deleted by psilocin)
(Rated as: insignificant)
(Of Counsel)
12-16-03 21:42
No 477227
      there is a reason     

Isopropyl alcohol is used purposefully here since it is less agressive a solvent than methanol, and a good pseudo HCl solvent when hot. This method uses the particular {i]strengths and weaknesses[/i] of the three principle solvents employed to yield clean pseudo from a range of OTC pseudo medicines. Not all psuedo pills will pull cleanly by this method, and of those that do, some will not if you substitute methanol.

If you use methanol, expect to also extract all of the tripolidine and chloropheneramine maleate in the white 60's. You will need to deal with it by a separate step.

mostly harmless
12-17-03 05:17
No 477324
      boilin alcohols/solvents     

caution should be used as boiling these solutions cause liquid to overflow in some cases. remove the flask of the heater if its overflowing to avoid fire. shockedfrown
note to videoeditor - please include such warnings in write ups, as silly as it is.
12-22-03 06:08
No 478327
      hot and cold... recrystallisation!     

i was just wading through the middle of this thread, and i came upon something about how pseudo.hcl is virtually insoluble in cold IPA... what about IPA from the freezer, -20°C - -40°C... especially after boiling down to something like 10% above the level of the original volume of xylene. Just cook it up, let it cool with a fan blowing it, wait until it evaporates to the desired volume and then stick it in the freezer.
(Hive Addict)
12-22-03 18:33
No 478469

Why wouldn't you just finish evaporating it?

But after thinking about it, what you are proposing is nothing more than a basic recrystalization procedure.   Which could also bee carried out by boiling the alcohol until a skin begins to form then add a little more alcohol and allow to cool.

It wasn't Me!
12-22-03 21:16
No 478494
      well, recrystallising is the essence of the tek     

i was just thinking that if the technique involves crystallising, why not take advantage of this and save yourself from having to boil the solvents any longer than one has to. when in the freezer the mix will precipitate crystals much earlier. I am suggesting this as a modification to the initial xylene/naptha/ipa boil (after the filtration of the extraction). i don't see why it wouldn't work.

also, if one has a distillation apparatus, it would make a lot of sense to do the boil there, although the distillate would be mixed, one could filter out the crystals, then distill the whole mix down, put the distillate aside for future naptha/ipa/xylene extractions.
(Of Counsel)
12-22-03 23:24
No 478511
      other things in the mix     

elfspice-- This method works because at this temperature about the only thing that has precipitated in a filterable form is the pseudoephedrine HCl. Drop the temp ten degrees and gakks start precipitating too. Most of the inactives present and filterable or that attach to the pseudo rinse off with acetone or MEK rinses of the pseudo. If you do not filter the solution hot, you will have more than pseudo in the mix. Filtering while hot has a lot to do with this method working.

VideoEditor settled on the 105C temperature by experimenting and finding his pseudo was cleaner when filtered at that temp. At that temp the solvents xylene and naptha are still holding some inactives in solution which fall out at lower temperatures. You see them fall out of the solution as it cools. At 105C the pseudo has preciptiated in the solvents, but the others that will have not.

If you bring the solution up to temperature too slowly, either by not using enough heat, or by using too small a hotplate to get the volume of solvent hot enough fast enough, you will have an excess of naptha evaporate before it reaches its boiling point and before all the alcohol has evaporated. I noticed this when I tried to increase the size of the extraction and it was taking too long. The volume of solvent was far too small when I was through, and I found PEG in my pseudo. Hot naptha will dissolve PEG from the pill mass, but if you evaporate too much of the naptha before you precipitate out the pseudo, it has to go somewhere. Some of it goes with the pseudo.  Boil the alcohol off too slowly in this method-- by not using enough heat to bring the temperature to 90C fast enough-- and the volume of naptha can drop too low before the pseudo precipitates. Naptha evaporates pretty fast even when it isn't at it boiling point, and when you simmer a large extraction by this method over too small a hot plate, enough naptha can evaporate to leave the solution too crowded with other gakks to contain them all. Adding room temp naptha slows down the boiling off of the alcohol, but gives naptha a friendly place to hide while the pseudo precipitates as the alcohol boils off. Using the right size hotplate, or adding more of the alky/natpha/pseudo solution to the pot with the xylene as it heats up may solve the problem.

I have had this happen on two or three occasions; each time I had a contaminant in the pseudo I did not have when I brought the temperature up faster. when I got peg in the final product I realized the reason was that I let the fluid volume of naptha fall too low to contain it even at temperature. That at least is the way it seems to me. I noticed the volume of the xylene/naptha remaining looked too low, and noted the time it took to get the solution hot enough to drive off the alcohol was common to all such less-than-clean extractions.

If what you filter out of the solution is a mix of crystals of different substances, saving the alcohol has been a false economy.

There is likely a good use to be put to the poor solubility of really cold alcohol. I am not sure this is it.

mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
12-23-03 00:10
No 478534
      Recrystallization of nearly pure     

Pseudo or meth is in my opinion the good use geez speaks of.

I too have experienced what you describe geez.  The pseudo didn't precipitate into the xylene freely flowing but stuck to the beaker as well as to itself which By the time i realized what went wrong and added more xylene it just got worse due to the temp drop after adding more xylene.

However, i then added more methanol to dissolve all the solids and continued as usual and then everything went fine from there.

If your pseudo sticks to anything as it starts to precipitate then add more xylene or naptha or both and then add more alcohol. 

Be careful when adding the alcohol because your xylene may bee hotter than the boiling point of the alcohol and it will boil as soon as it hits the xylene.

It wasn't Me!
12-24-03 08:18
No 478789

Would a preheat of the xylene before adding to nap/iso for final boil down help here? This would speed up heating time by not dropping the temp of the nap/iso solution so much. However, more would bee required because it would evap faster as well. HMMMMMM test time! AND swim was just going to call it a night and turn out the lights. Oh well sleep is over rated.

awayman ---God said "let there be light" and he put it in a 12 oz can!
12-24-03 11:42
No 478808

Swix just finished performing this novel operation on 200 white generic 60s with PEG, povidone, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, carnauba wax, etc, as inactives. Since the overall volume was approx. 4X that which was listed, it was felt that the appropriate thing to do was to employ a make-shift oil bath to minimize naptha loss due to lengthy temp ramping (smallish hot plate). Precipitation of the pfed upon boiling combined extracts with added xylene occurred in a more gradual fashion than Swix expected and the resulting semi-crude pfed weighed 12g after drying.  Of course, this would bee 100% of theory.  The consistancy of the pfed was a bit clumpy at this point and tended to stick to the pyrex evap dish.  Once dry, the pfed was briefly heated to near boiling 2X with MEK (70ml), then washed 2X with acetone. The pfed was no longer tacky when dried and lost most of its tendancy to adhere to the pyrex. Once dried, it was again weighed (10.7g) and taken up in pure isopropanol sufficient to affect complete dissolution. The resulting solution was slightly milky in appearance and turbid.  A bit of acetone was added to the solution and it was allowed to stand at room temp for 20 min prior to placing (covered) in the freezer. After filtration and another 2 acetone washes, the sparkling white needles were allowed to dry in the air with only the gentlest heat and then weighed.  Total yield was 9.45g.  No mp done yet, but experience tells Swix that this stuff is functionally clean enough for use. My hat is off to VE and all who worked to create what I feel is one hell of an elegant technique.  Swix will bee capturing the distillate in some future run, so as to measure the solvent ratios therein and possibly generate to data useful to those wishing to 'heal' the solvent balance during or post boil-down. Good work!!
03-13-04 20:48
No 494872
      am i missing something here does this give you     

am i missing something here does this give you eph. hcl or freebase
(Hive Bee)
03-14-04 08:34
No 494982
      it gives you (psuedo)eph.HCl since no bases...     

it gives you (psuedo)eph.HCl since no bases touch the pills in this process.
04-04-04 21:13
No 499039
      Has anyone done STE w/ denatured alcohol ...     

Has anyone done STE w/ denatured alcohol instead of Isopropanol?. Drugstore sells 16 oz bottle for $2. Home Despot sells denatured alcohol for $9 a gallon.
04-04-04 23:08
No 499049
      any alcohol     

No ,but b has heard you can use any alky,make sure it is dry!You are trying to save money in the wrong place.This is where you need all high quality,top products!That is if you can get the Iso use it.B can't get Denatured Alcohol,but heard it is the same as Methanol.Here we don't have methanol, they call it methyl alcohol.

Wanted female cook that can clean.Must be over 18.
04-04-04 23:21
No 499050
      just did STE,,,,blue gakky results     

went by VE's book using brand name 120's. tablets contain "carnuba wax, hypromellose, Mg stearate,  microcrystalline cellulose, polyethylene glycol, povidine, , and titanium oxide. Printed with edible blue ink"
04-10-04 05:55
No 499990
      New gak?     

120s, from dollar store and the bullseye (with the coating disolved ala Mnky, thanks dude, works great) made BEAUTIFUL long needle like crystals before the final xylene/boil/crash.  The filtrate wasn't very bitter but white powder (looked like powdered sugar).  Still long pretty crystals, so filtered again (this result left a bitter plastic on drying).  The liquid still has lots of beautiful crystals.  WTH?!?  I'm thinking, new gak.  Will try to scoop the crystals when they form, not crash them.  Maybe an a/b?  I'll see what I can figure out, but thought some one might have already seen this.  Wish I could offer some help with this, but I'm clearly outranked in knowledge here.  (BTW, thanks for the sharing of knowledge).
04-20-04 08:11
No 501736
      STE utter failure     

SWIM was daydreaming bout this and the following kept invading his mind...

1) In making the extraction solution w/oven dried epsom salts, the mixture stayed cloudy, even after an hour of waiting.

2) Even through all three boils, the pills he thought would be used (generic 96x30s) never fully disintegrated. The red never even washed off of some.

Would this be because the extraction solution wasn't good?

perplexing.... I mean SWIM expected that this wouldn't be a complete nightmare.... but live and learn, and hopefully someone could provide some insight I could pass on to him....
(Hive Bee)
04-20-04 11:18
No 501757

Since the SE is out of commission, this seems like an appropriate place to post swims new dilemma.
Unfortunately for swim, his sister has let him down whilst pill collecting, despite an extensive *crash course*.
So now swim regretfully has...
40 x 30mg Pfed HCl, Paracetamol 500mg
28 x 30mg Pfed, 500mg paracetamol, 1.25mg tripolidine HCl.
These are in the form of aqua *caplets*. Pharmaceutical slang for capsule shaped tablets i imagine! smile
Swim also has 24x 30mg Pfed HCl, 200mg Ibuprofen.
Now the 21yo pretty (dumb) blonde sister has received a thorough spray and she now sees where she went wrong crazy
Swim is worried about the aqua caplets because they give that gaak impression. Swim hasnt looked up inactives yet, but they are the old faithful red brand, just the wrong formulation.
Now swim generally uses the procedure outlined in the "waterless a/b" with a few solvent variations.
Lets say swim has his freebase saturated xylene and is preparing to wash with water.
If he did a few ICE COLD water washes, on top of the regular washes, do you think that would remove most of the paracetamol from the np?
If not then swim would like to know if anybody has had success removing paracetamol using a variation of the *published* extractions in circulation.
Now swim thinks he will try and return the ibuprofen pills, but just in case, he will look into its solubility info.
Apart from that, swim hasnt had the pleasure of meeting Orange gaak yet, but he thinks that it may be present in these tablet forumlations. I dunno, i guess i'll soon see!!

I'm a diamond that is tired, of all the faces i've aquired.
04-30-04 21:09
No 504028
      i was wondering if you could use the denatured     

i was wondering if you could use the denatured alcohol, for amination? ive heard its the same as methanol, is this true?just want to make sure...
(Hive Addict)
05-01-04 00:52
No 504061
      Usually it's ethanol w/methanol as denaturant     

But wait for a few more responses to be sure

Country line dancing royally sucked until black people got ahold of it
(Hive Bee)
05-01-04 06:00
No 504106

amongst other things they put this crap in methylated spirits....

 Denatonium Benzoate
C28H34N2O3; OHS71072; RTECS BO6650000
family Carboxylic acids

Physical & chemical properties

Physical state
Color  White
Physical form Crystalline powder
Odour  Odourless
Tase Bitter taste
Molecular weight 446.57
Molecular formula C21-H29-N2-0.C7-H5-02
Boiling point Not applicable
Melting point 331-338 F(166-170 C)
Vapour pressure Not applicable
Vapour density(air=1) Not applicable 
Specific gravity (water = 1)  *

Stability & reactivity

Stable at normal temperature and pressure.
Conditions to avoid Avoid heat, flames, sparks and other sources of ignition.
Avoid contact with incompatible material
Incompatibilities Oxidizing materials
OXIDIZERS (STRONG): Fire and explosion hazard.
Harzardous decompositions Thermal decomposition products: oxides of carbon
Polymerization Will not polymerize

the horror
(Hive Addict)
05-01-04 06:56
No 504116
      That Whacked Smell     

What the hell is that whacked smell that most denatured alc has to it?

The sickly perfumy one. That can't just bee methanol or the supposedly odorless substance mentioned above.

oooh ooh that smell, can't ya smell that smell?
(Hive Bee)
05-01-04 18:41
No 504194

there's also some ethyl ketone thingo they use....would that be the smelly one?....hang on...i'll try and find it...

got it..... that was methyl isobutyl ketone....what the heck is that?

the horror
05-02-04 00:31
No 504246

it's the denaturant -as in, one of the things that makes it undrinkable.   otherwise it would be taxed to shit and cost $30 for a 1 L can of it.     to be proper, it's not really "denatured"..
06-12-04 16:26
No 512973
      Swim can only get a temp of 100c is this ok?     

Swim can only get a temp of 100c is this ok? If so, must Swim add an additional minute or two?
(Hive Bee)
06-12-04 17:21
No 512981
      in swibbs experience     

it is very neccesary to reach 105C. swibb even takes the temp to almost 110C. 105C seems to be the breaking point of the gaak as well as the point at which all the alcohol and most of the residual water are gone. swibb has seen a marked diference in yield and quality going any amount lower than 105. swibb goes to ~110 to compensate for temp differential top to bottom and to keep the temp 105 or higher once it is removed from the heat and hits the funnel. quality has suffered when the temp starts dropping while filtering.
06-12-04 17:42
No 512984
      Is the 105c temp suppose to be the temp inside     

Is the 105c temp suppose to be the temp inside the flask or the temp outside the flask for the oil bath?
And if Swim has no other option to the 105c temp needed; is it recommended to try it at 100c anyway because it can work, it will just take a little longer or go for a different method to make this happen?
(Hive Bee)
06-12-04 17:52
No 512989
      oil bath? flask?     

no offense dude, but what the hell do you mean?? there is no flask nor an oil bath for a straight to e pill clean. did you post in the right thread? and even if it was an rxn you were spekaing of then the answer is stil no 100C is not high enough.

the temp is measured from inside the BEAKER that is being heated from your HOTPLATE. and the temp needs to be 105-110C measured from the INSIDE. got it?
06-12-04 19:44
No 513006
      Sorry, meant beaker not flask and the bath was     

Sorry, meant beaker not flask and the oil bath was a question for a diffrent part of the dream. Swim can see where you would be like what the hell.
06-13-04 00:06
No 513038
      Can the beaker for the STE be Stainless Steel?     

Can the beaker that is used for the extraction liquid be a Stainless steel beaker? And If not, can Swim use a pyrex dish that is placed directly on a cast iron hot plate?
06-20-04 04:14
No 514347

geez geez no faith! want me to mail you some? if you wash the crushed pills with solvent first it works. any way lets get down to the real shit here. good ol meth is easy to make when can we start on the ergotamine or however the fuck you spell it. yer smart eh? watcha think of festers practical lsd book? would you use it?
(Hive Bee)
07-30-04 21:44
No 522756

SWINM is down in the dumps because they just wasted a decent amount of feed trying this. frown SWINM obtained nice crystals of P-Fed, but a little bit after basing the honey oil three layers formed in the funnel. The top was a very thin yellow oil with whitish precipitate in it, the middle looked like pink water, and the bottom layer looked like dark yellow cloudy water. After a few good shakes of the funnel the middle layer turned clear as water and had white precipitate in it... the top and bottom layers still looked the same. Have any other bees experienced this when going this route? What kind of gakk is this? SWINM is tired of the whole pill game and is probably gonna start extracting E from Ma Huang.

The pills that where used are non-generic and had 4 mg of Chlorpheniramine maleate and 60 mg of Pseudoephedrine HCl per pill. The pills also contain lactose, magnesium stearate, potato starch, and povidone. And obviously a shitload of gakk not listed on the box of course. frown

Society exists by chemical affinity, and not otherwise.
07-31-04 04:45
No 522835
      Povidone + gakk for sure     

STE was great for a while, SWIM uses it to recrystallize as a final step nowdays.
Follow this thread Post 499089 (UncleFester: "deconstructionist thought", Stimulants) SWIM's area has been overrun with major GAKK, and he has recently started to beat the pill fuckers once again, Dont know about the rest of the bees here. SWIM just heard about an overabundance of RP here, might have something to do with this gakk problem, orange plastic doesnt smoke well at all.
(Hive Addict)
07-31-04 07:30
No 522878
      BarkingBurro - King of the 60's     

also, considering the pills you used, check out this thread

Post 519424 (barkingburro: "70% plus yield, clean p/fed is still possible", Stimulants)

Geography quiz answer - Albania
(Hive Bee)
07-31-04 07:36
No 522880
      Chemo... tried that already     

failed miserably. Maybe different 60's ? these came from the bullseye, lowest shelf. SWIM just did some with KOH very rcently with good results, THANKS
(Hive Bee)
07-31-04 12:54
No 522916
      Thanks for the info. SWINM wanted to try that...     

Thanks for the info. SWINM wanted to try that new Fester KOH pull, but was kind of in a rush because other people would be coming back from a trip soon so there was no time to order KOH and none of the soap making places that SWINM checked at had it. SWINM needs to get a shitload of pills and do this KOH pull before they come up with some space aged gakk. After trying this SWINM is going to try and get their E from Ephedra from now on. I wonder why more Bees don't try to extract from Ma Huang. I know it's only a mater of time before Mother Nature itself is List 1, but its way harder to control a plant. Anyone that lives near a Chinese area shouldn't have a problem getting it. I've seen it in a lot health food stores too (the bulk herb.. not the pills). I remember Fester saying that he couldn't get it where he lives. Someone should send him some so he can work on a Ma Huang extraction for his next book. The one on Rhodium's site involves boiling ether. I rather not do that because I'll probably kill myself... lol. laugh

Society exists by chemical affinity, and not otherwise.