UncleFester (Popular Author)
08-06-03 05:12
No 451981
      pill fuckers at it again     

I have a friend who likes to check on pill compositions from time to time. It's sort of like his hobby. While checking the latest bunch of gas station ephedrine pills, he became alarmed. His favorite technique no longer worked, in fact it seemed that the pills were specifically designed to attempt to defeat the method he had layed out.
He extracted gas station ephedrine pills by the usual method in SOMM 5 or 6. Grind...soak in toluene...filter and let dry...base with enough NaOH in isopropyl to make a oatmeal consistensy, stir for a few minutes,..then extract with NP solvent of the free base...
Low and behold what surprises he had...
using naptha as the extractant, he just produced a gummy mess which wouldn't extract...but lots of foriegn plastic gum was extracted into the solvent...
using toluene as the extractant, the pill mass swelled and swelled... he found it interesting to discover how long it would take under the hot sun for the swelled solvent mass to evaporate the toluene... it takes a LONG time.
I have relied upon this general method for years, but it is obvious that this generation of pills has circumvented that method. My guess is that they have incorporated microencapuslated pus which releases upon contact with NaOH and just ooozes pus.
My first thought was to replace NaOH with Na2CO3 to see if the pus bags will then burst, but this straight to E idea sounds like a winner. I wonder how long it will take to   design a counter to this procedure...
I'll keep you posted, but I sure liked my old method... as far as I know, the old method still works with grocery store pseudo...but this is coming..
(Hive Bee)
08-06-03 11:02
No 452065
      Swid wondered...     

about those gas station pills! She even posted a question about them somewhere here recently. Swid is almost sure you are talking about the same gas station. Rhymes with mexico....

The last couple of times she used them she got gak. These pills had always been her favorite because of how easy they are to clean. She didn't even mind spending extra on them. Thats a bummer.

Swid is glad you posted about this. She thought it was those pills but wasn't sure because she is inexperienced. She is starting to learn tho.... Thanks for the info! smile
(Hive Bee)
08-06-03 13:42
No 452082
      Generics Using Patents......     

I have been reading about drug delivery methods and from what i read the pharmaceutical companies are spending billions on new formulations which will have more precise control on drug release into the body as well as reducing side effects.  In the meantime the patents on their past and present formulations are expiring and therefore the generic companies are able to use these methods.  In other words when one of the top name brands is hard to pull, then that same formulation can bee expected to show up in the cheaper pills in the future.  I posted a link to one of the pdf files on this subject not long ago.  Here it is:http://www.pharmanet.com.br/pdf/drugdelivery.pdf

It wasn't Me!
08-06-03 14:58
      crazy dazy
(Rated as: off-topic)
(Hive Bee)
08-06-03 18:52
No 452115
      You Again....     

What is up with you Snydley? Swid thinks you are following (stalking)her around and picking on her. mad Knock it off! Sheesh.

And besides ole snydleyman....did UncleFester appoint you as his voice? Swid is sure that if he wanted to tell her he wasn't concerned with her lame post, he would do so all on his own. You are starting to get on Swid's nerves, and only after 2 posts! wink

He might not be concerned, but Swid was. She was real bummed when these pills ended up giving her gak. She could always count on them before. It just so happened this was a subject she was wondering about, so she mainly wanted to post her thanks. Now get off Dazy's ass! 

They all sell the same ephedrine pills? Sure about that? Where did you come from anyway, and why are you stalking Dazy?

You are kind of a funny guy....laugh
08-06-03 20:14
No 452124

tell you how to get rid of any gakk, crucsh,boil in mixture of xylene acetone,(boil the shit outta them) let settle,
discard most of the liquid,add more xylene acetone,boil again. discard liquid,then add xylene acetone let soak,
discard and dry. then proceed from there. the ephhcl should
not sholuablize in either liquid. but depending on
how many combinations of silicon and cellulose are in them
is how many times you need to soak/boil the mass. What
this thread needs is a solution to de-naturize these gakks
instead of isolating them, denaturize them first then isolate/extract/discard them. The best denaturant I can think of for crapola like these gakks is acetone.
Osmium or Rhodium could prolly bag up some information on povidone/gakk denaturants.
(Hive Bee)
08-07-03 04:23
No 452220
      My advice on gas station type pills     

If the pills contain "ephedrine alkaloids" dont even waste
your time since you can buy a pound of it for the same
price as 1 bottle plus its not so easy to extract ephedrine
from ephedra powder as you might think.

If the pills contain "ephedrine hcl" then your ok, a
distillation or a/b extraction should work.

Useing the STE on cheap sinus pills is still swims favorite
for obtaining OTC starting material.

(Popular Author)
08-08-03 12:22
No 452443
      not that easy..     

These pills contain ephedrine HCl. I am familiar with the brute force methods using several solvent washes. I prefer to use finesse because brute force uses too much solvent, is wasteful and polluting. That method I had was a nice finesse of the gunk in the pills.
Steam distillation will not work on these pills because they contain a foamer that just won't quit. Gas-X doesn't touch it. My friend may study the emulsifier content of these pills to determine if they can be sidestepped by other means, but the straight to e method has caught my attention. The only thing I don't like about it is that it uses boiling solvents. They are a smell and fire hazard.
(Hive Bee)
08-08-03 14:28
No 452449
      UncleFester! Stay safe and invisible.     

UncleFester! Stay safe and invisible.

With the STE method, the boiling of the solvents is totally necessary and unavoidable.
The amount of IPA used is critical.
A narrower beaker might also help, but bee more dangerous.

Geezmeister gave me the most excellent explanation of it's clever mechanics that I could ever expect. Geez, can I distribute this explanation privately to this special bee to end this?

Fester I hope your staying safe. Nice to say something to you =)
(Of Counsel)
08-08-03 15:55
No 452456
      no need     

I'm sure Uncle Fester understands the concepts the Straight to E embodies.

I would say that doing it fairly small scale in a large Erlenmeyer flask reduces some of the risks of ignition and that I have less difficulty with this than with doing a simple ker plunking, which I consider inherently more risky a process.

Mostly harmless
(Popular Author)
08-09-03 03:24
No 452535
      we have a contract     

When a writer bangs out a book, he enters into a contract with you the reader. After all, you bought it. The contract on my end is if I have an easy outlet like this to let you know about something that effected the content of the book,
I better yell.... this post is my yell. It also my obligation to talk to the readers of my books. I prefer they be single nubile females.
(Hive Bee)
08-09-03 10:43
No 452588
      festah suh...     

On the foam, did you try any of the de-foaming products at the local swimpool supply? The jacuzzi de-foamers work alot of times, I use the real concentrated stuff as it only req.s a drop or two. The reason they some times work is that they act on foam that developes when lotions and oils from swimmers mix with the heated polar sol. as it goes through the aireator jets. They are easy to wash out with mek or tone, at the rinse point.tongue

Karma? Karma is on Murphy's payroll. Nothing improper, it's freelance.
(Popular Author)
08-10-03 16:18
No 452778
      just Gas-X     

Is the jaccuzzi defoamer a silicone like Gas-X? My first impression was that if the foam wasn't broken by simethicone, then it also would ignore other silicones. That was just an impression however, and hasn't been proven by experiment.
08-10-03 17:24
No 452789
      Anyone remember Oilman's 'Ferric Chloride' method?     

SWIM's guess is after a STE, adding the Ferric Chloride step to an A/B would fix all. SWIM has seen it do wonders in the past.
08-15-03 04:20
No 453632

Emulsifiers, surfactents, soaps, detergents, and ions
I remember the circuit bored etcher idea, but never tried it.  People buy water softeners to ensure that their soaps and shampoos lather, and foam.  Hard water doesn't latheras well.  Perhaps hardening water by pouring in some Mg +2 and Ca +2 ions would combat the foam.  Now, one just need to find a beaker of pure +2 ions.wink

Nothing is, Nothing becomes, Nothing is not
(Popular Author)
12-27-03 03:09
No 479196
      pill fuckers fucked     

I'm sorry for the great delay in following up on this subject. I have always said that give me a day or two and I can crack any pill formulation. This is still the case, it's just that I had no time to myself for the past several months. I was translating a knife fighting manual from Portugese(Brazil source) to English. It was payback for the website they did for me, and now I am guiding it through Pagemaker Program and to publishing and marketing. My life sucks. I have no fun anymore.
To the point, it is the solvent pre-soak that loads up those pus bags for release. If one just takes the gas station ephedrine pills and grinds them and then just directly wets them with a solution of NaOH in 91% ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL, stir for a minute or two and then starts extraction with stirring with np solvent like naptha, they extract just fine. It is the solvent pre-soak, to repeat once again, which primes the gak to puke on you.
12-31-03 06:59
No 479915

So your just wetting the crushed up mass? Then continuing as normal? Could you use sodium bicarbonate instead? I have read that lye activates certain gak formulations (orange I and II).

there is no try, only do
(Hive Bee)
12-31-03 12:02
No 479964
      I'm not sure about that UF, a solvent presoak...     

I'm not sure about that UF, a solvent presoak primes just, in fact, the mind for an extended task.

what were your yields like doing it your way?

waxes and glues can leave a lot unexposed to the base.
12-31-03 21:12
No 480036
      hello uncle fester...sitting here not seeing...     

hello uncle fester...sitting here not seeing great results with the tetra trap...damn jelly keeps magically forming...sort of like the blob but without steve mcqueen...anyhow, i just so happen to have some isopropanol, 99% naoh powder and some naptha and i was wondering how one might go about making a 91% iso-hol 9% naoh solution (if that's what you mean) given that a/ the caustic is powder, and b/ i have as much idea about chemistry as your average lamp post...i guess i'm after some way of using educated estimations of said proportions as i have no real measuring aparatus...anyway, have fun and all that...bye for now,
p.s. do you apply heat in this process?

holy sheep shit!!
12-31-03 23:51
No 480047
      yeilds are too high and contain waxes/plastics     

SWIM has tried STE and STB as well as the full-turps cure, by the directions. He is not so unsuccessful in other areas of chemistry. He has used different brands as well and always ends up with the same result - waxes and/or plastics in the final product. He knows because of the waxy/shiny looking luster. He has seen clean pseudo and it resembles cotton in appearance before recrystalised. He is now at a loss for he has coupled pre-soak with various methods and has seen for a fact that NaOH does activate the orange and pink gaks, eliminating the possibility of an A/B. He would like to use "equivalent" type pills if you know what he means. Anybee have tried and true method on these? Or better yet if someone would be so kind as to PM him with a brand and method that work together he would be thrilled.

there is no try, only do
(Popular Author)
01-01-04 00:30
No 480053
      may they rest in peace...     

It seems that the final bell has sounded for those gas station ephedrine pills, but they didn't have much wax or gum in them, just this funny pus package that primed itself with a solvent presoak and then went off with exposure to NaOH. The extraction yield was nothing to brag about...roughly 50% of theoretical...making the NaOH in isopropyl is easy, just pour some red devil into the bottle and let sit for a while with some shaking to get it into solution, them put a bit more red devil in the powdered pill mass. Sudo pills need the solvent pre-soak because they are so damn gummy, but I don't think they are incorporating the pus bag formulation...yet.
(Hive Addict)
01-01-04 03:49
No 480074

Have you tried the tetra trap?

It wasn't Me!
(Hive Bee)
01-01-04 10:08
No 480085
      Deer AuntyJak,     

the blobs of white jelly are a type of cellulose, it's not terribly important which of the 2 or 3 types it is.

A long soak in acetone should take care of it, it takes a long time to dissolve.
It seems to work fully and completly, old man geez who lives in the gray house by the disused bridge taught me this.

Fester! Do you think the base and alc did much better the base + water would have?
I bet orange wouldnt like alc as much to spawn itself in. what do you think?

Well done fest you fucked them up.
(Hive Bee)
01-01-04 19:56
No 480130
      Ferric Chloride method     

by oilman:
Post 126328 (oilman: "Re: "The Cure" for all Oz pseudoephedrine pills", Newbee Forum)

This sounds rather complicated, but it isnt. The "flokking" step is the one of interest here and it can be added to any other common method with ease - I would suggest to start with TETRA - dry TETRA (perchlorethylene) and then do the ferric chloride flokkulation. This is from the way it works very similar to Japan Drier and should work with all salts/oxides or even the plain iron so finely divided. (other metals should work also, but iron for being known very effective in polymerisations may be first of choice)

How it works:
Iron is a polymerisation catalyst, it induces the polymeres to form longer chains and so to become filterable or change properties in another way - to become removeable as the properties of polymeres are strongly determined by the molecular weight of the single polymeric chains.
So oilmans wording was wrong, it is no breaking of the gakk but a clustering. The method is genious so.


Honi soit qui mal y pense
(Hive Bee)
01-01-04 20:44
No 480134
      Rag, interesting, and would it affect polymers     

Rag, interesting, and would it affect polymers universally, or just certain varieties? and do you know anything about the effect it would have on certain varieties, and if the effect is negative to yield or separation?

Why didn't you mention it monthes ago?
01-01-04 20:56
No 480135

Please bear in mind that UF is talking about Ephedrine pills that are being sold at the local gas station near that Harley Davidson Factory down there in the deep south.

With that as a given, this method is being taught as a fix for THEM.  It may work on the Ephedrine pills at YOUR local gas station, but SWISII advises to test on 1 bottle before stuffing 25 bottles in the blender at once.

The one thing we do know is this:  No matter what works today, or what worked 6 months ago will not necessarily have an impact tomorrow. 

Don't be fooled by snake oil salesmen who merely use a gimmick to further the sales of their tonic.  Teaching a fix as universal is an insult to the many bees who have worked endless hours on formulas, and who will be the first to report to you any changes you're likely to encounter.  I'm certain that this wasn't UFs intent, and felt it important to clear up that issue.
(Hive Bee)
01-02-04 01:57
No 480154

Of course not, I don't follow any method. I certainly don't rush out to get packets of pills to test methods.

I just wanted to give fester some props because he's pparently out of form, and broke through. Using OH and base is just one trick I'd use in a clean, depending on what Fester says. But I have many. smile

Take this as another, that isn't documented but works nicely, to your preferred building society. This is a superb, powerful, evironmentally-friendly solvent economical, pfed.sulf/pfed.hcl friendly intitial multi-step wash to dry GUP (or whole pills):

1. Cover in 3-5 volumes of DCM (it don't matter-your getting it all back)

2. Chuck the dirty DCM in the freezer or frige for as long as you an wait.

3. Wash the cold DCM with tap water to extract any dyes and much else. The water will sit on top of the DCM.

3. Repeat x as many as you like.

boiling DCM has a tendency to clog filters, because it doesnt have far to cool down and waxes/glues/shit precipitate out easily.

I think of DCM like acetone, except it won't dissolve pfed as much if at all.

I suspect it may bee safer to the yields of pfed and to one's sanity to do the washes with the GUP inside the filter paper and then dipped in the boiling DCM. Something like a tea-bag. Sort of like in that tyvek wash, except for gaks and dyes.

The way I gave instructions for will of course get more gak per shot, but inside a filter paper for the washes the potential loss of pfed is near nothing.

I say this because with chlorinated solvents one is never quite certain if the pfed is floating or stuck to the bottom because of gaks not yet removed.
(Of Counsel)
01-02-04 02:29
No 480159
      OH and base     

Using OH and base is just one trick I'd use in a clean, depending on what Fester says. But I have many.

I've done some posts of my results doing just that. Cthulhujr took the STB and used dried alcohol to mobilize the base. I had used dried acetone. Both in fact do work to mobilize the base without water. The waterless approach to basing also helps keep PEG at bay in the STB; nothing beats preextraction boils in naptha, IMHO. Take the PEG out, use Na2CO3 to base, mobilize the base with a 50/50 mix of dry ISO and dry Acetone, and you may find as I did that you bring fewer polymers with the pseudo.

I also have the thought that the tendency of the tetra trap method to bring the PEG with the pseudo may be related to the use of the water to mobilize the base. I have not had an opportunity to do a modified tetra trap, trading dry ISO and/or a mix of dry ISO and acetone to mobilize the base. Add the alky/tone mix, then the naptha or tolly, add more alky/tone after decanting the first pull, stir, then add more solvent to extract. I haven't tried it yet. With the generic 120's I obtain, this may be needed to limit how much PEG gets pulled; it may still be necessary to take the PEG out with a couple of naptha boils.

Sorry, my comments ran long. I did want to suggest you review some of my earlier efforts at mobilizing the base with acetone or a mix of alcohol and acetone, as the information may be of use to you.

mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
01-02-04 04:21
No 480171
      Geez, thanks for all that!     

Geez, thanks for all that!

The question I've always had with the Waterless A/B was the 30-40% yield loss-where does it all go? What do you put it down to, the novel basing process or the fact that waxes and gak is coating the pfed.hcl?

I think it's glues in part atleast...swim has seen a thinish fudgish white sticky gak not let go of ANY dye visibally, to a solvent the dye is freely soluble in, even with good stirring!

With the tetra trap, and PEG following through I agree the water is the problem, and maybee toluene holding on to some water.
It's easy to use too much H2O aswell. You'd think that the H2O was full of enough gak, aswell as the tetra to not drift away with the NP, but I don't think it's a given...

Heating the water is always going to cause a cellulose problem aswell. That's why for that problem, a long acetone soak, a boil incorporated in to this soak to assist dissolution, to let the tone marry with as much of the stuff it can dissolve as possible.

With the tetra trap, for swim personally, he'd remove as much as he could with TCE, then use tetra as the actual NP as it would hold no water at all.
Even better, as a second NP, with toluene, xylene or naptha if you like on top. As an Orange escaping measure...

Then the NP's (both...at the same time) need to bee washed with water. To remove orange oil.

Because even if orange is slightly soluble in NP as you said once, water washes will still remove it.

To add water to the tetra trap he may add the water with a sprayer.

Or the alcohol, or alcohol + tone, we'll find out in the new year i guess? smile

I can carry on worse. tonguewink
(Hive Addict)
01-02-04 09:09
No 480191
      Good Idea!     

To add water to the tetra trap he may add the water with a sprayer.

Or the alcohol, or alcohol + tone, we'll find out in the new year i guess?

I have been thinking about doing this as well in order to more evenly distribute it.  Look forward to your comments on it and i will post mine if i try it first.smile

It wasn't Me!
(Hive Bee)
01-03-04 00:43
No 480214
      Thanks Short! Deal. ;-) I'm not sure what...     

Thanks Short! Deal. wink

I'm not sure what effect it'll have, if any, but escaping in the event of orange being released is a prime goal, whether it's that or a combo of things or something totally different. I think Ill go over that concenus thread again aswell as the recent ones.
(Hive Bee)
01-03-04 19:10
No 480261

The more solvents and steps applied, the more losses. Thats unavoidable.

The ferric chloride method was pointed at by sandman not me, I just provided the link and some theory. Sandman is not as new as it may seem (so I am right, and I am sure on this), I suggest to read his posts well and to follow the hints given.

I did it once - the search -I wont do it always.

Boil with several portions of dry TETRA (perchlorethylene) till no decolorization appears. (of the TETRA). Wash with hot extraction non-polar then. Naphta/Colemans is better as toluene as being more selective. Do the ferric-chloride step. Basify/extract, gass.

No guarantee of course.
And yes, the ferric chloride polymerization should work on all high-molecular weight polymeres and make them to ultrahigh-molecular weight polymeres with seperable properties.

And use the search engine.
This is not new.
The OzBees had this years ago already and have beaten it years ago.


Honi soit qui mal y pense
(Hive Bee)
01-03-04 20:57
No 480275
      Ill go over it. :-P     

Ill go over it. tongue
(Popular Author)
01-04-04 02:10
No 480325
      I hope it still works...     

The last time I tried the grind pills with solvent to de-gum, then base with NaOH in isopropyl alc and extract with solvent method on sudo pills was over a year ago, but it was working just fine then with yield dependent upon how finely ground the pill mass was. That, of course doesn't mean it still works or will 6 months from now. That ferric chloride attck upon polymers sounds interesting and I will investigate it further. As to using water instead of alc, the pill mass stayed much more amenable to extraction using alc to base the sudo.
(Hive Bee)
01-04-04 13:54
No 480357
      I wonder what happens at the miscible portion...     

I wonder what happens at the miscible portion comprising the basified alky, orange and the extraction NP?

Geez said he hadn't been described an experiment by swig about using alk in the tetratrap. But I'm sure he's tried orange pills with the Waterless A/B and failed.

Now I'm thinking that the reason hellmans took days to migrate was because he used so much water. The fb contained in the orange was so dilute with water, that inside the small miscible portion with the NP, there is little pfed able to migrate per unit of time.

with alcohol, it would increase the miscible portion.
and by using little it would concentrate the pfed:orange within that zone.

gentle heating to lower the viscosity and increase the currents.

I hope alcohol works a treat in the tetra trap, I think it will.
(Head Coach)
01-05-04 09:58
No 480470
      Sorry that this post doesn't related to the...     

Sorry that this post doesn't related to the current topic at hand but is from 10-15 posts previously but this is the first chance I've had to explain details in regards to defoamer.  The kind that was mentioned is likely a very common type that I think you'd find almost anywhere no matter where in the U.S....it is concentrated and for spa use DOES oonly require a very small amount to be effective.  It is silicone based and I have found it to be excellent for breaking up emulsions that otherwise won't seperate when doing an A/B extraction.  As for whether or not it would work with a straight solvent extraction I can't say.  But it is worth a try if you find no other alternatives since it is not expensive and if it doesn't work for this purpose...it will work for many other techniques and will probably last forever when used on such small scale as compared to the typical use as a spa defoamer.  As for getting rid of it once you've gotten your solvent separated...I have found at least with gassing...it wasn't even a issue...just gas and then rinse your product with clean fresh solvent like normal and your done as is.  Pyrex out of information ;-)

Yeah and if ya don't PAID me well, I won't INFORMANT you of the answers you are seeking ;-)
01-07-04 04:44
No 480850

Nope, SWIM hasnt tried the tetra trap yet. That was going to be his next move but he pretty much gave up on extractions because of the pain-in-the-ass and is looking for an alternate source. Difficulties in aquiring certain substances and lack of investment capital have just recently led him back to extractions.frown He is gonna try the tetra trap next and would appreciate it if some bees would PM him with some brands that the tetra is known to clean.
(Popular Author)
02-16-04 04:39
No 488957
      some clarification     

a couple opf years ago, this method gave close to 100% yield on extraction if one let the solvents work for a day or so in the fridge,...now the yield is going down like a rock in water. There is something in the mix which sucks up freebase better  or as good as solvent. This was a simple method...freebase the goods and extract...then gas to get crystals. I will soon start talking like those guys on the Cartoon Channel....feet stuck to floor!....Can't move!...
In any case, the alcohol added to base the ephedrine caused no problem so long as enough solvent was used in toto to keep the alkie from preventing the crystals from crashing out in gassing.